Cruising choices with an active Pandemic

[Anna]

This quote from the BMJ article about the Greg Mortimer (linked above) is alarming for those who think that preboarding testing provides any assurance of being virus free or that small ships are somehow safer -

all 128 passengers and 95 crew [were] screened for COVID-19 symptoms, and body temperatures were taken before boarding. No passengers or crew that had transited through China, Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea or Iran in the previous 3 weeks were permitted to board

 

[drron]

This bit is alarming for those who think that preboarding testing provides any assurance of being virus free or that small ships are somehow safer -

all 128 passengers and 95 crew [were] screened for COVID-19 symptoms, and body temperatures were taken before boarding. No passengers or crew that had transited through China, Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea or Iran in the previous 3 weeks were permitted to board

That's obviously the Greg Mortimer.They weren't tested for Covid 19 before boarding but screened for symptoms.It was a total screw up.See post 939.One of the part owners interfered in the reporting of the disease,they sailed after the USA stopped cruises and only tested after the ship arrived off Montevideo.

 

[tgh]

The Greg mortimer debacle reads like a microcosm of the general Covid response by the mainstream cruise industry.
Silversea present as an exception and seem to have rolled through Covid with their reputation largely intact….so far….
I wish folks long memories but expect to fail.

 

[Pushka]

The Greg mortimer debacle reads like a microcosm of the general Covid response by the mainstream cruise industry.
Silversea present as an exception and seem to have rolled through Covid with their reputation largely intact….so far….
I wish folks long memories but expect to fail.

Viking cancelled all Ocean and River cruises to end of June in mid March. They've now cancelled all cruises until end of August. They cancel in 2 month blocks about the month before.

You simply cannot screen for this virus pre boarding and that is something that cruiselines took too long to register after Diamond Princess. Denial more like. Ruby didn't stand a chance. As for the sailing of the Greg Mortimer - beggars belief.

The only thing that smaller cruise ships offers is a smaller mix of potential virus spreaders. Less people = less variation = reduced risk.

 

[tgh]

Less people = less variation = reduced risk

Indeed

Quantifying managing and insuring the Covid infection risk is a vital new imperative for all travellers.
Medical research is helping and insurers and others are probably now developing some risk management strategies.

It seems likely that cruising may be commercially uninsurable for Covid risk for the foreseeable future.

For high volume low cost cruising enterprises the cattle may be insured by the carriers with a cattle class return to home base quarantine still alive model.

Low volume high cost/quality operators may also offer a similar deal ; this group tend to be populated by aged hnwi's with extensive Covid loving Co-morbities.
The cost of high quality personal care and repatriation to first world or better facilities could be very high for this group.
This would likely attract risk scaled very high add on charges.


Offering compulsory carrier insurance sold with the passage ticket underwrites the cruise lines carriage capacity for a relatively small but high risk add on enterprise cost.

Exec summary : Based upon historic commercial trust , I would likely accept a Silversea insurance package surcharge and hit the waves ( but only to low Covid destinations)

 

[Pushka]

Less people = less variation = reduced risk

Indeed

Quantifying managing and insuring the Covid infection risk is a vital new imperative for all travellers.
Medical research is helping and insurers and others are probably now developing some risk management strategies.

It seems likely that cruising may be commercially uninsurable for Covid risk for the foreseeable future.

For high volume low cost cruising enterprises the cattle may be insured by the carriers with a cattle class return to home base quarantine still alive model.

Low volume high cost/quality operators may also offer a similar deal ; this group tend to be populated by aged hnwi's with extensive Covid loving Co-morbities.
The cost of high quality personal care and repatriation to first world or better facilities could be very high for this group.
This would likely attract risk scaled very high add on charges.


Offering compulsory carrier insurance sold with the passage ticket underwrites the cruise lines carriage capacity for a relatively small but high risk add on enterprise cost.

Exec summary : Based upon historic commercial trust , I would likely accept a Silversea insurance package surcharge and hit the waves ( but only to low Covid destinations)

It isn't even the catching of the virus, but the closure of ports due to suspicion or actual, of Covid onboard plus what happens when others may develop it. So.....

My Exec Summary.
While I would love to go cruising it, it will be a huge leap of faith, and likely my kids calling me reckless, to go on a cruise again until there is an effective vaccine, and in all likelihood, having that vaccine is a requirement for crew and passengers to board. I can't see it any other way. I do have 2 cruises booked - July 21 in the Med and December 21 to Egypt. I just don't know if either will happen.

 

[drron]

You can now screen for Covid easily now though not perfect as with any test.At the hospital now we are using the rapid PCR test swab with results in 30 minutes.It is as accurate as the usual test that takes days for an answer.cost was a problem initially but I am told the last batch received was cheaper.

There are also several rapid antibody test kits available with results in 10-15 minutes with reasonable accuracy.This is one-

COVID-19 IgM/IgG Antibody Rapid Test Kit - Aurora Biomed

COVID-19 IgM/IgG Antibody Rapid Test Kit – FDA EUA Authorized

www.aurorabiomed.com

An explanation of test.

Rapid COVID Antibody Test | Antibody Tests

Rapid COVID Antibody Test is a lateral flow immunoassay to assess the presence of patient-generated IgG and IgM antibodies specific for SARS-CoV-2.

www.assaygenie.com

The Maldives have released their protocol for tourists.to be allowed in you need a positive antibody test or a negative swab test.To be done before you leave and again on arrival.
Silversea have also announced you need to be tested before you leave home and again pre boarding.

There will be occasional cases that slip through as no test is 100% accurate but doing tests before leaving and again entering a country or boarding will make the accuracy pretty high.

 

[woodyren]

A little off topic but does anyone know how a person can go about getting an antibody test done?

 

[Anna]

They weren't tested for Covid 19 before boarding but screened for symptoms

I'm disturbed that 'screening for covid19 symptoms' isn't the same thing as 'testing for covid19'. Not many ordinary people without medical training would realise that when they're being assured by a cruise line / airline / hotel that it's safe to cruise / fly / stay because everyone is being 'screened for covid19'.

As to IgM/IgG rapid testing, see this reference from the BMJ article linked above: Cassaniti I, Novazzi F, Giardina F, et al. Performance of VivaDiag COVID-19 IgM/IgG rapid test is inadequate for diagnosis of COVID-19 in acute patients referring to emergency room department. J Med Virol 2020. doi:10.1002/jmv.25800. [Epub ahead of print: 30 Mar 2020].

 

[sinophile888]

It isn't even the catching of the virus, but the closure of ports due to suspicion or actual, of Covid onboard plus what happens when others may develop it. So.....

My Exec Summary.
While I would love to go cruising it, it will be a huge leap of faith, and likely my kids calling me reckless, to go on a cruise again until there is an effective vaccine, and in all likelihood, having that vaccine is a requirement for crew and passengers to board. I can't see it any other way. I do have 2 cruises booked - July 21 in the Med and December 21 to Egypt. I just don't know if either will happen.

I have finally bitten the bullet and cancelled the two cruises that I have booked.

One was on the Queen Elizabeth in December 2020, cruising from Melbourne to Melbourne via New Zealand. I was loathe to cancel as the itinerary was great for us, we had a cabin which suited us perfectly and we love Cunard cruises.

The other was on the Sapphire Princess in March, 2021 from Melbourne to Perth via Darwin. We booked this cruise ages ago when there was a problem with me flying. Having been on the QE in December 2019, the Sun Princess in January 2020 and the QM2 in February 2020, we have decided that Princess is not for us. The Princess cruise didn't stand up to the comparison. And the QM2 cruise in February 2020 was almost the identical itinerary in the reverse direction.

I am not sure when we will travel again. Initially, it will be flying to Melbourne to see the son and granddaughter.

 

[drron]

I'm disturbed that 'screening for covid19 symptoms' isn't the same thing as 'testing for covid19'. Not many ordinary people without medical training would realise that when they're being assured by a cruise line / airline / hotel that it's safe to cruise / fly / stay because everyone is being 'screened for covid19'.

As to IgM/IgG rapid testing, see this reference from the BMJ article linked above: Cassaniti I, Novazzi F, Giardina F, et al. Performance of VivaDiag COVID-19 IgM/IgG rapid test is inadequate for diagnosis of COVID-19 in acute patients referring to emergency room department. J Med Virol 2020. doi:10.1002/jmv.25800. [Epub ahead of print: 30 Mar 2020].

Well that article was 2 months ago and plenty of developements since then
But also no one really expected the antibody for this test to be the method of diagnosis.The PCR test will be positive earlier.Hence why a screening program will consist of the PCR test to see if positive and the antibody test to see if the others have already had the disease.Mounting evidence is that most people who have had Covid will develop antibodies.

Hospital Staff With Covid-19 Had Protective Antibodies in Study

Almost all doctors and nurses who got mild forms of Covid-19 produced antibodies that could prevent reinfection, according to a study conducted on hospital staff in northeastern France.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[JohnPhelan]

I have finally bitten the bullet and cancelled the two cruises that I have booked.

One was on the Queen Elizabeth in December 2020, cruising from Melbourne to Melbourne via New Zealand. I was loathe to cancel as the itinerary was great for us, we had a cabin which suited us perfectly and we love Cunard cruises.

The other was on the Sapphire Princess in March, 2021 from Melbourne to Perth via Darwin. We booked this cruise ages ago when there was a problem with me flying. Having been on the QE in December 2019, the Sun Princess in January 2020 and the QM2 in February 2020, we have decided that Princess is not for us. The Princess cruise didn't stand up to the comparison. And the QM2 cruise in February 2020 was almost the identical itinerary in the reverse direction.

I am not sure when we will travel again. Initially, it will be flying to Melbourne to see the son and granddaughter.

So you have cancelled cruises that were only visiting ports in Australia and New Zealand - within the expected "travel bubble". I'm intrigued as to why you made that decision. Is it the hygiene levels on the ships, or the number of passengers that concern you?

(I ask because I'm considering doing a cruise within the Aus/NZ bubble as soon as it is allowed.)

 

[sinophile888]

So you have cancelled cruises that were only visiting ports in Australia and New Zealand - within the expected "travel bubble". I'm intrigued as to why you made that decision. Is it the hygiene levels on the ships, or the number of passengers that concern you?

(I ask because I'm considering doing a cruise within the Aus/NZ bubble as soon as it is allowed.)

Both my husband and I are in multiple susceptible categories for Covid-19. We want to wait for others to take the plunge and will assess the results before we jump back into the boat. The Queen Elizabeth cruise which we have cancelled is scheduled to be repeated in December 2021. We may even make a tentative booking for that if the cancellation conditions are generous.
We both love cruising, especially on Cunard and Azamara and we were very sorry to have to make the cancellation choice.

 

[Pushka]

We may even make a tentative booking for that if the cancellation conditions are generous

That sounds like a good plan.

 

[tgh]

John, the mainstream ships are unlikely to be squeaky clean in the bubble.
They must have overseas guests and they will have overseas crew.
The mass market cruise lines will spin a plausible management line .
There is however , no escaping their size , their large passenger numbers , and the Petri dish stigma …...time will tell.

 

[tgh]

.aaaand .. here we go…. first "bubbler" is .. drum roll.. Ponant !!!

Email this evening proposing two ships in the bubble and asking for feedback ( and a booking would be nice… )

Posting this as a reward for enterprise.. well done Ponant


Let me explain our thinking.
Over the past five years, our significant investment in building the youngest, most technically-advanced fleet of 11 small expedition ships, has resulted in exceptional demand from all markets around the world for us to operate in all the far reaches of the world.

As Australians, passionate about our country, we are always competing against the demands from other destinations and markets for our small ships. This (sometimes frustratingly) means that we haven’t had the opportunity to trial extended seasons, new destinations or new itineraries in and around Australia and New Zealand.

We now see a brief window of time to trial some of these destinations, and to prove their appeal to our guests in the longer term.

While our beautiful ships are laying idle awaiting the green light to operate, we see an opportunity. Le Lapérouse is off Noumea, ready to pick up her Kimberley season as soon as we are able. Le Soléal is off Tahiti, excitedly waiting for us to say “Call Australia home”.

In the short term (August to March 2021), our concept is to create National Expeditions for Australians (and New Zealanders when the trans-Tasman bubble is formally open). We believe these initiatives can have significant economic benefit to the remote and regional communities we visit, helping to boost the Restart efforts of Tourism across our country. They will reignite business for our supply chain, for our partners in hotels, touring, food and beverage, and airlines. Importantly, they will secure jobs and in some cases protect livelihoods.

Our concepts are:
1. Extend the Kimberley season through until the end of September, 2020. We remain positive that we will be able to operate Le Laperouse in the Kimberley from late July. Normally our last sailing for the season would be 26 August. We would plan to operate another 2 x 10 night sailings from Darwin roundtrip.
2. Create the ‘Art of Ancient Arnhem Land’. (October). These would operate Darwin roundtrip, visiting key indigenous art communities in the Tiwi Islands and Arnhem Land. The bio-security zones in the NT are expected to be re-opened mid-June.
3. Queensland Coastal Expeditions. Operating from Brisbane in the south, to Cape York in the north, we have planned 3 different 7-night soft expeditions with Brisbane and/or Cairns as the embarkation and disembarkation ports. These would incorporate regional centres, and pristine islands that only small ships can get to. There would be no repetition of ports, so they could potentially be combined into 14 and 21-night sailings.
4. Around Australia Expedition. Naturally this would be a long trip, with shorter options to embark/disembark in Cairns, Darwin, Fremantle, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney.
5. Circumnavigation of Tasmania. Hobart roundtrip. This lends itself to a food and wine focus.
6. Circumnavigation South Island of NZ.
7. Shorter 7-night NZ itineraries. With a focus on hiking, biking, and/or golf. Lesser known ports.
8. Antarctica – The Ross Sea. January & February 2021. Two 21-night expeditions from/to Hobart and Dunedin, visiting Ross Sea area (Scott & Shackleton sites) for 7 days, Macquarie Island, and Campbell island in the NZ sub-Antarctic islands.

We would not necessarily be able to do all of the above, and that is why we ask you to prioritise your interest for doing one or more expeditions in the short term (August to March), and separately in the longer term.

In closing, let me share with you that when we were forced to cease operations on March 15, 2020, we immediately deployed a plan to shelter our ships and crew members until the resumption of operations. The small size of our vessels, the medical infrastructure and teams on board, our protocols and the professionalism of our crews ensured that there were no cases of Covid-19 contamination throughout the fleet. We have done extensive work into the development of our ‘Covid-Safe zone operations’ onboard our ships and these plans are being reviewed by a number of health authorities in those jurisdictions where we plan to operate in the short term.

Thank you so much for your input in helping us to shape an exciting opportunity for Australia and New Zealand. Hopefully we can also ignite some shorter-term holiday dreams. We are ready.

 

[Pushka]

.aaaand .. here we go…. first "bubbler" is .. drum roll.. Ponant !!!

Email this evening proposing two ships in the bubble and asking for feedback ( and a booking would be nice… )

Posting this as a reward for enterprise.. well done Ponant


Let me explain our thinking.
Over the past five years, our significant investment in building the youngest, most technically-advanced fleet of 11 small expedition ships, has resulted in exceptional demand from all markets around the world for us to operate in all the far reaches of the world.

As Australians, passionate about our country, we are always competing against the demands from other destinations and markets for our small ships. This (sometimes frustratingly) means that we haven’t had the opportunity to trial extended seasons, new destinations or new itineraries in and around Australia and New Zealand.

We now see a brief window of time to trial some of these destinations, and to prove their appeal to our guests in the longer term.

While our beautiful ships are laying idle awaiting the green light to operate, we see an opportunity. Le Lapérouse is off Noumea, ready to pick up her Kimberley season as soon as we are able. Le Soléal is off Tahiti, excitedly waiting for us to say “Call Australia home”.

In the short term (August to March 2021), our concept is to create National Expeditions for Australians (and New Zealanders when the trans-Tasman bubble is formally open). We believe these initiatives can have significant economic benefit to the remote and regional communities we visit, helping to boost the Restart efforts of Tourism across our country. They will reignite business for our supply chain, for our partners in hotels, touring, food and beverage, and airlines. Importantly, they will secure jobs and in some cases protect livelihoods.

Our concepts are:
1. Extend the Kimberley season through until the end of September, 2020. We remain positive that we will be able to operate Le Laperouse in the Kimberley from late July. Normally our last sailing for the season would be 26 August. We would plan to operate another 2 x 10 night sailings from Darwin roundtrip.
2. Create the ‘Art of Ancient Arnhem Land’. (October). These would operate Darwin roundtrip, visiting key indigenous art communities in the Tiwi Islands and Arnhem Land. The bio-security zones in the NT are expected to be re-opened mid-June.
3. Queensland Coastal Expeditions. Operating from Brisbane in the south, to Cape York in the north, we have planned 3 different 7-night soft expeditions with Brisbane and/or Cairns as the embarkation and disembarkation ports. These would incorporate regional centres, and pristine islands that only small ships can get to. There would be no repetition of ports, so they could potentially be combined into 14 and 21-night sailings.
4. Around Australia Expedition. Naturally this would be a long trip, with shorter options to embark/disembark in Cairns, Darwin, Fremantle, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney.
5. Circumnavigation of Tasmania. Hobart roundtrip. This lends itself to a food and wine focus.
6. Circumnavigation South Island of NZ.
7. Shorter 7-night NZ itineraries. With a focus on hiking, biking, and/or golf. Lesser known ports.
8. Antarctica – The Ross Sea. January & February 2021. Two 21-night expeditions from/to Hobart and Dunedin, visiting Ross Sea area (Scott & Shackleton sites) for 7 days, Macquarie Island, and Campbell island in the NZ sub-Antarctic islands.

We would not necessarily be able to do all of the above, and that is why we ask you to prioritise your interest for doing one or more expeditions in the short term (August to March), and separately in the longer term.

In closing, let me share with you that when we were forced to cease operations on March 15, 2020, we immediately deployed a plan to shelter our ships and crew members until the resumption of operations. The small size of our vessels, the medical infrastructure and teams on board, our protocols and the professionalism of our crews ensured that there were no cases of Covid-19 contamination throughout the fleet. We have done extensive work into the development of our ‘Covid-Safe zone operations’ onboard our ships and these plans are being reviewed by a number of health authorities in those jurisdictions where we plan to operate in the short term.

Thank you so much for your input in helping us to shape an exciting opportunity for Australia and New Zealand. Hopefully we can also ignite some shorter-term holiday dreams. We are ready.

I don't think Australian authorities are ready to open up ports to any kind of cruise ship for quite a few months even when NZ opens. Strictly flights only. Maybe by year end. Just my thoughts.

 

[drron]

The woman who owned the Orion expedition ship sold out to Linblad.With that money she bought ~ 30% of Ponant.Several of the Expedition staff now work with Ponant.
Hence their interest in Australia.

 

[p--and--t]

.aaaand .. here we go…. first "bubbler" is .. drum roll.. Ponant !!!

Email this evening proposing two ships in the bubble and asking for feedback ( and a booking would be nice… )

Posting this as a reward for enterprise.. well done Ponant


Let me explain our thinking.
Over the past five years, our significant investment in building the youngest, most technically-advanced fleet of 11 small expedition ships, has resulted in exceptional demand from all markets around the world for us to operate in all the far reaches of the world.

As Australians, passionate about our country, we are always competing against the demands from other destinations and markets for our small ships. This (sometimes frustratingly) means that we haven’t had the opportunity to trial extended seasons, new destinations or new itineraries in and around Australia and New Zealand.

We now see a brief window of time to trial some of these destinations, and to prove their appeal to our guests in the longer term.

While our beautiful ships are laying idle awaiting the green light to operate, we see an opportunity. Le Lapérouse is off Noumea, ready to pick up her Kimberley season as soon as we are able. Le Soléal is off Tahiti, excitedly waiting for us to say “Call Australia home”.

In the short term (August to March 2021), our concept is to create National Expeditions for Australians (and New Zealanders when the trans-Tasman bubble is formally open). We believe these initiatives can have significant economic benefit to the remote and regional communities we visit, helping to boost the Restart efforts of Tourism across our country. They will reignite business for our supply chain, for our partners in hotels, touring, food and beverage, and airlines. Importantly, they will secure jobs and in some cases protect livelihoods.

Our concepts are:
1. Extend the Kimberley season through until the end of September, 2020. We remain positive that we will be able to operate Le Laperouse in the Kimberley from late July. Normally our last sailing for the season would be 26 August. We would plan to operate another 2 x 10 night sailings from Darwin roundtrip.
2. Create the ‘Art of Ancient Arnhem Land’. (October). These would operate Darwin roundtrip, visiting key indigenous art communities in the Tiwi Islands and Arnhem Land. The bio-security zones in the NT are expected to be re-opened mid-June.
3. Queensland Coastal Expeditions. Operating from Brisbane in the south, to Cape York in the north, we have planned 3 different 7-night soft expeditions with Brisbane and/or Cairns as the embarkation and disembarkation ports. These would incorporate regional centres, and pristine islands that only small ships can get to. There would be no repetition of ports, so they could potentially be combined into 14 and 21-night sailings.
4. Around Australia Expedition. Naturally this would be a long trip, with shorter options to embark/disembark in Cairns, Darwin, Fremantle, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney.
5. Circumnavigation of Tasmania. Hobart roundtrip. This lends itself to a food and wine focus.
6. Circumnavigation South Island of NZ.
7. Shorter 7-night NZ itineraries. With a focus on hiking, biking, and/or golf. Lesser known ports.
8. Antarctica – The Ross Sea. January & February 2021. Two 21-night expeditions from/to Hobart and Dunedin, visiting Ross Sea area (Scott & Shackleton sites) for 7 days, Macquarie Island, and Campbell island in the NZ sub-Antarctic islands.

We would not necessarily be able to do all of the above, and that is why we ask you to prioritise your interest for doing one or more expeditions in the short term (August to March), and separately in the longer term.

In closing, let me share with you that when we were forced to cease operations on March 15, 2020, we immediately deployed a plan to shelter our ships and crew members until the resumption of operations. The small size of our vessels, the medical infrastructure and teams on board, our protocols and the professionalism of our crews ensured that there were no cases of Covid-19 contamination throughout the fleet. We have done extensive work into the development of our ‘Covid-Safe zone operations’ onboard our ships and these plans are being reviewed by a number of health authorities in those jurisdictions where we plan to operate in the short term.

Thank you so much for your input in helping us to shape an exciting opportunity for Australia and New Zealand. Hopefully we can also ignite some shorter-term holiday dreams. We are ready.

I don't think Australian authorities are ready to open up ports to any kind of cruise ship for quite a few months even when NZ opens. Strictly flights only. Maybe by year end. Just my thoughts.

Non-aussie ships not allowed to enter Aussie waters before September 17th. Then they got to get here, replenish etc. So doubt any cruises before 20th.

Australia Extends Cruise Ship Ban Through Mid-September | Cruise Critic

Cruise Critic News: Australia Extends Cruise Ship Ban Through Mid-September, read on to learn more.

www.cruisecritic.com.au

 

[luxury-lizard]

I have no idea - but isn't it possible Ponant could seek an exception due to the small size of their ships - of course all states and NZ would need to agree. But I imagine many Aussies and Kiwi cruisers would welcome the opportunity to cruise locally until the world situation is all clear. (As one sitting on a substantial FCC from Ponant - I could be interested but the proposed itineraries are not really ones which would be attractive to me - but I would not discount it out of hand due to limited travel opportunities in next 6-12 months).