[Discussion on Issues raised by] AJ getting pie in the face

[love_the_life]

.....

There are still far more Christians in Australian than atheists or agnostics.

Only because people tick that box on the census forms. In truth they are only Christian by birth/culture and not in practice.

 

[ALH]

With rights come responsibilities.

There are still far more Christians in Australian than atheists or agnostics.

Can you please let me know where you obtained this statistic?

 

[Melburnian1]

Be that as it may, that doesn't mean every one of those christians follow all - or even big parts - of their chosen doctrine.

That may have some truth, but it also doesn't mean that Catholics or other Christians, if probed in depth and not just by one line 'surveys', automatically reject key tenets.

The detailed 2016 Census figures will be out by the end of June 2017, and they will probably show a decline in Christians as a percentage of the overall population, but in 2011, 61.1 per cent of us identified as 'Christian':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia

Only 22.3 per cent of us chose 'no religion', although more than nine per cent did not tick any of the boxes. One cannot assume that every one of the latter lacks a religious belief.

Even if the 2016 figures show an increase in those who claim 'no religion', they are most unlikely to be anywhere near 50 per cent of Australians.

 

[ermen]

This is not a matter between the church versus the non-church.

People who support SSM have their view.
People who don't support SSM have their view.

In the secular court of ideas, they are both valid.

People bring up the issue of non-discrimination, and equality.
As I mentioned before, that is a tenuous argument.

And I will posit that by and large, the gay community in Australia does not experience discrimination - when was the last time you heard someone being denied service because they were gay, or not being able to get medical help, get a rental etc etc. And we should not discriminate. In fact, it seems cool now to support the rainbow agenda, and those who don't are actually bullied into submission (cf: coopers brewery) or seem to be ridiculed by a portion on this board.

It is actually not Christians or others trying to impose their views on society, but rather a vocal (minority?) trying to impose their agenda, on what had largely been the consensus for milennia. But of course, it is not fashionable to criticise the militant rainbow agenda, and left ideology today...

 

[esseeeayeenn]

And I will posit that by and large, the gay community in Australia does not experience discrimination - when was the last time you heard someone being denied service because they were gay, or not being able to get medical help, get a rental etc etc. And we should not discriminate. In fact, it seems cool now to support the rainbow agenda, and those who don't are actually bullied into submission (cf: coopers brewery) or seem to be ridiculed by a portion on this board.

This is completely untrue. But of course YOU don't see the discrimination because it isn't directed at YOU.
It's called privilege.

 

[ermen]

This is completely untrue. But of course YOU don't see the discrimination because it isn't directed at YOU.
It's called privilege.

Please let us deal with facts. What do you precisely mean?
If you are saying that there is systematic discrimination against members of our LGBT community in Australia, I am all ears (and eyes) to see the evidence. The clear evidence against that, is the fact that we have the CEO of an iconic Australian being openly gay. And the fact a certain senator from the Labor party is an open lesbian, and still got elected. Might I suggest that it would not be so easy in other countries? My specialist is gay, I too don't see a problem with him practicing his branch of medicine in this country.

And if there truly was discrimination, that needs to be fixed.

Still, facts and logic please.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

I don't like being patronised. I am reminded of men who dismiss women's arguments by accusing them of being hysterical.
My statement was perfectly logical and I am dealing with facts. I live with these particular facts every minute of every day.
We are still regularly subject to homophobic violence. Gay children are still bullied at schools. A 13 year old boy was bullied to death recently in Queensland.
Not one of his classmates saw any consequences for their actions. Instead, they were given grief and trauma counselling!
They were responsible for his death. No one acted to help him while he was alive. But his killers got help to cope with his death!
Meanwhile Safe Schools is being abandoned in NSW because the Catholic Church runs that state government and it wants to see us all dead.
(They also had the former education minister removed because he queried their spending of public funds.)
Our suicide rates are much higher than in the general population. The rate of mental health issues is also much higher.
Youth homelessness and unemployment are higher. Many young gay kids drop out of school because they are rejected by their families and become homeless.
Or because of the bullying they experience at school. I remember being beaten up every day for five years of high school.
This has devastating effects which are lifelong and from which it can be difficult to recover.
In most states discrimination is unlawful but that doesn't mean it doesn't occurr. It does, frequently, in all areas of life.
People are passed over for jobs, or for promotion, or refused rental accomodation, but now they aren't told the real reason.
I once had a client who was unfairly dismissed because his employer and colleagues wrongly thought he was gay.
However he wouldn't let me lodge an antidiscrimination claim (based on perceived not actual sexuality) because he was terrified other people would think he was gay.
And formal discrimination remains in some areas, notably superannuation, aged care and health care.
Further, under commonwealth law and the law in most states and territories, religious institutions are EXEMPT from these anti-discrimination laws.
So religious organisations, including affilliated schools, aged care facilities and hospitals, can legally discriminate against us.
Even though many of these affilliated institutions receive significant government funding.
The homosexual advance defence to murder is still on the books in at least one state and is only now being removed in QLD.
Name one openly gay AFL player (in an actual league team). Oh wait - there aren't any. Do you seriously think not one of them is gay?
They dare not come out because of the discrimination. Just as Ian Thorpe didn't dare to come out while he was a competitive swimmer.
Name one openly gay member of the Australian cricket squad. At the Beijing Olympics there was only one openly gay Australian athelete. Although Matthew is fabulous enough to take the place of 200.
In many walks of life it is difficult to find openly gay people. Yes things have improved but to say we do not experience discrimination is simply wrong.
Every time I change job I keep my sexuality secret until I have confidence that it will be accepted.
I put up with electricians tagging the electrical equipment in my office and referring to me as "that fa_" behind my back.
Because I have learned that making complaints about this will see you labelled a troublemaker.
Recently I overheard a colleague teasing another colleague because he was wearing a pink jumper and suggesting that meant he was "a poofter".
How could I possibly explain how uncomfortable that made me feel?
Yes there are now some successful openly gay people who are positive role models for young people.
But there are also some successful women. That doesn't mean there is no discrimination against women any more. Clearly there is.
The fact that the situation is worse in other countries doesn't mean there are no problems here.
On twitter today a Fairfax political reporter tweeted a photo of a man who hurled homophobic abuse at him and his partner in a Canberra restuarant.
I've been similarly abused by people in road rage incidents, and randomly in shops, at service stations, and especially in the Perth nightlife district of Northbridge.
It is perfectly logical for me to point out that you can't possibly know or understand what we experience because you're not one of us.
And my experiences are factual. I am passionate about this but I am not hysterical.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And I will posit that by and large, the gay community in Australia does not experience discrimination - when was the last time you heard someone being denied service because they were gay, or not being able to get medical help, get a rental etc etc. And we should not discriminate.

...

It is actually not Christians or others trying to impose their views on society, but rather a vocal (minority?) trying to impose their agenda, on what had largely been the consensus for milennia. But of course, it is not fashionable to criticise the militant rainbow agenda, and left ideology today...

Discrimination is not always overt. When was the last time you heard of someone who was denied a service because they were Aboriginal?

A landlord doesn't have to say they didn't give you the property because you are gay (or whatever other reason), they just choose someone else and give whatever reason they want that is lawful (like employment history).

Whatever the consensus has been for 'millennia' is irrelevant today. Slavery, homosexuality being illegal, apartheid, women not having the vote, domestic violence. All considered 'valid' or ignored at some stage.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't like being patronised. I am reminded of men who dismiss women's arguments by accusing them of being hysterical.
My statement was perfectly logical and I am dealing with facts. I live with these particular facts every minute of every day.
We are still regularly subject to homophobic violence. Gay children are still bullied at schools. A 13 year old boy was bullied to death recently in Queensland.
Not one of his classmates saw any consequences for their actions. Instead, they were given grief and trauma counselling!
They were responsible for his death. No one acted to help him while he was alive. But his killers got help to cope with his death!
Meanwhile Safe Schools is being abandoned in NSW because the Catholic Church runs that state government and it wants to see us all dead.
(They also had the former education minister removed because he queried their spending of public funds.)
Our suicide rates are much higher than in the general population. The rate of mental health issues is also much higher.
Youth homelessness and unemployment are higher. Many young gay kids drop out of school because they are rejected by their families and become homeless.
Or because of the bullying they experience at school. I remember being beaten up every day for five years of high school.
This has devastating effects which are lifelong and from which it can be difficult to recover.
In most states discrimination is unlawful but that doesn't mean it doesn't occurr. It does, frequently, in all areas of life.
People are passed over for jobs, or for promotion, or refused rental accomodation, but now they aren't told the real reason.
I once had a client who was unfairly dismissed because his employer and colleagues wrongly thought he was gay.
However he wouldn't let me lodge an antidiscrimination claim (based on perceived not actual sexuality) because he was terrified other people would think he was gay.
And formal discrimination remains in some areas, notably superannuation, aged care and health care.
Further, under commonwealth law and the law in most states and territories, religious institutions are EXEMPT from these anti-discrimination laws.
So religious organisations, including affilliated schools, aged care facilities and hospitals, can legally discriminate against us.
Even though many of these affilliated institutions receive significant government funding.
The homosexual advance defence to murder is still on the books in at least one state and is only now being removed in QLD.
Name one openly gay AFL player (in an actual league team). Oh wait - there aren't any. Do you seriously think not one of them is gay?
They dare not come out because of the discrimination. Just as Ian Thorpe didn't dare to come out while he was a competitive swimmer.
Name one openly gay member of the Australian cricket squad. At the Beijing Olympics there was only one openly gay Australian athelete. Although Matthew is fabulous enough to take the place of 200.
In many walks of life it is difficult to find openly gay people. Yes things have improved but to say we do not experience discrimination is simply wrong.
Every time I change job I keep my sexuality secret until I have confidence that it will be accepted.
I put up with electricians tagging the electrical equipment in my office and referring to me as "that fa_" behind my back.
Because I have learned that making complaints about this will see you labelled a troublemaker.
Recently I overheard a colleague teasing another colleague because he was wearing a pink jumper and suggesting that meant he was "a poofter".
How could I possibly explain how uncomfortable that made me feel?
Yes there are now some successful openly gay people who are positive role models for young people.
But there are also some successful women. That doesn't mean there is no discrimination against women any more. Clearly there is.
The fact that the situation is worse in other countries doesn't mean there are no problems here.
On twitter today a Fairfax political reporter tweeted a photo of a man who hurled homophobic abuse at him and his partner in a Canberra restuarant.
I've been similarly abused by people in road rage incidents, and randomly in shops, at service stations, and especially in the Perth nightlife district of Northbridge.
It is perfectly logical for me to point out that you can't possibly know or understand what we experience because you're not one of us.
And my experiences are factual. I am passionate about this but I am not hysterical.

Thank you for that heart felt post.
I like many people here have had to learn to modify my behavior and re-educate myself over the last 60 years.
I don't think I'm perfect, I'm certainly still guilty of some degree of prejudice in certain areas , but I count myself as tolerant and accepting of much more today than I did 20,30,40 years ago.
I was brought up as the son, grandson and nephew of Anglican clergymen, I have seen at first hand the results of child abuse and neglect, I have been guilty as a teenager and young man of being flippant about homosexuality and thought it all just a bit too funny, probably not helped by the likes of the Dick Emery and Benny Hill shows of the early 70's , when it was still funny to poke fun at people who chose "alternative" lifestyles.
I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that generally speaking we are as a society more guilty of thoughtless behavior, dismissing it as "just a bit of fun" poking fun at the girl who is flat chested as a teen, and then being equally rude about the girl who is well developed.
Teasing the boy who doesn't quite fit in because he's a bit of a pansy!
I was discussing with Mrs GPH last night the perils of social media, I was a user of face book, but have decided to withdraw (easier said than done I might add) from that aspect of social media. I find that I like about 5 % of what I see, and believe that about 90% of users should have to pass some kind of maturity test before being allowed to have a FB profile , or a smart phone with camera for that matter. The problem as I see it , is that social media has given voice to everyone, and frankly a lot of what "everyone" has to say is not interesting, is offensive, and just a massive waste of time.
I enjoy the AFF threads because it is generally specific, i.e. Is about flying, premium cabin hacks , meeting and enjoying the company of like minded individuals, and generally having a good time. I would add that I have met a number of people through this site who I would never have had the opportunity to meet otherwise, and I am the richer for it.

 

[Deleted member]

Please let us deal with facts. What do you precisely mean?
If you are saying that there is systematic discrimination against members of our LGBT community in Australia, I am all ears (and eyes) to see the evidence. The clear evidence against that, is the fact that we have the CEO of an iconic Australian being openly gay. And the fact a certain senator from the Labor party is an open lesbian, and still got elected. Might I suggest that it would not be so easy in other countries? My specialist is gay, I too don't see a problem with him practicing his branch of medicine in this country.

And if there truly was discrimination, that needs to be fixed.

Still, facts and logic please.

You need to get out more. Discrimination is everywhere , you just need to be aware of it.

 

[drron]

The AFL situation is a bit strange.Ian Roberts came out as the first NRL player to be gay.But that was in 1995.When Manly didn't want him because of injuries he was recruited by the Cowboys as their captain.Now I admit to barracking against him in the 1995 Grand final but that was because after North Sydney I went for any team that played Manly.

As to bullying it happens to a lot of straight kids too.I was regularly bashed in Primary school because of my weight and because I didn't fight back.Didn't happen in high school because I had 4 friends who suffered the same problems though for varying reasons and we spent lunch hours playing bridge or chess.Our school ended up with a formidable chess team.

 

[tgh]

Discrimination presents as a new age weasel word that is a moveable feast in terms of applied meaning.

We can't breathe without discriminating, and the popular extrapolation of that decision is that we probably should not.. as someone may be effected by our decision.
Folks with an axe to grind use the word as a weapon.

 

[Pushka]

I got picked on at school because my grandmother made my clothes (back in the day when store bought was de rigour) and my mum knitted me caps I had to wear on the walk to school. Got so bad I didn't want to go to school. My older brother sorted the lads out by waiting for them one day and put these large seed pods that were known to make you itch down the back of their shirts.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Well said esseeeayeenn. Completely agree

 

[Moindardt]

I am totally disgusted that I can't post any response on any forums/newspapers due to the abject fear friends and family have over the vindictive and malicious nature of certain parts of society who are happy to actively destroy the lives of people who don't agree with them.

 

[Moindardt]

You need to get out more. Discrimination is everywhere , you just need to be aware of it.

I can see huge amounts on these forums.. mainly perpetrated by certain parties who always claim to the the victims.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I am totally disgusted that I can't post any response on any forums/newspapers due to the abject fear friends and family have over the vindictive and malicious nature of certain parts of society who are happy to actively destroy the lives of people who don't agree with them.

Would you have the same argument about being able to post anti-Semitic comments? Or racist comments? Or is it only in relation to homophobic comments that people wish to post but fear the retribution?

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Would you have the same argument about being able to post anti-Semitic comments? Or racist comments? Or is it only in relation to homophobic comments that people wish to post but fear the retribution?

Exactly!

It's kinda pointless to continue though. They just don't get it and never will

 

[Moindardt]

Would you have the same argument about being able to post anti-Semitic comments? Or racist comments? Or is it only in relation to homophobic comments that people wish to post but fear the retribution?

I am not talking comments. I am talking real lives that are actively destroyed because of the reverse discrimination that exists. Unlike some people who talk about the implied discrimination and how upset it makes them, I am talking real discrimination that if was the other way around would be lengthy prison sentences as a hate crime. Unfortunately many anti-discrimination proponents believe that is only possible for discrimination to go one way and many of them sit in our parliaments and court benches (and certainly in this forum).

I am an advocate against any form of discrimination, not just one side.

Stalin was more forgiving of dissenting points of view than certain parties of our society.

 

[Moindardt]

Exactly!

It's kinda pointless to continue though. They just don't get it and never will

Exactly!

It's kinda pointless to continue though. They just don't get it and never will.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...7j35i39j0l4.2493j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8