[Discussion on Issues raised by] AJ getting pie in the face

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I am not talking comments. I am talking real lives that are actively destroyed because of the reverse discrimination that exists. Unlike some people who talk about the implied discrimination and how upset it makes them, I am talking real discrimination that if was the other way around would be lengthy prison sentences as a hate crime. Unfortunately many anti-discrimination proponents believe that is only possible for discrimination to go one way and many of them sit in our parliaments and court benches (and certainly in this forum).

I am an advocate against any form of discrimination, not just one side.

Freedom from discrimination doesn't mean you can say what you want, when you want if you know those views are harmful or likely to incite hatred, bring contempt or otherwise be harmful.

We have laws against that for good reason.

You are essentially promoting the right to express anti-Semitism, racisim, and homophobia, because to argue against someone with those views is 'reverse discrimination'.

There are a million and one issues that people can talk about that don't involve spreading of ignorance and harm.

It's actually very simple - if you don't discriminate, or wish to promote discriminatory ideas, your life can't be 'actively destroyed' by those who point out the fallacy on which the original beliefs are based.
 
Thank you for that heart felt post....
I enjoy the AFF threads because it is generally specific, i.e. Is about flying, premium cabin hacks , meeting and enjoying the company of like minded individuals, and generally having a good time. I would add that I have met a number of people through this site who I would never have had the opportunity to meet otherwise, and I am the richer for it.

Thank you for your comment.
I also enjoy AFF for the aviation content and I hope you've noticed that I regularly contribute to the directly aviation related threads.
I have a paid Expert Flyer subscription and I'm happy to use that to answer queries about flight loadings and upgrade chances.
I love discussing my favourite destinations, lounge access and one world issues and comparing QF and VA trans con J products.
But I find it difficult to ignore these discussions when they arise.
I have to admit I can feel the physiological symptoms of fear every time I write such a post.
Even now I am a succesful, well paid (and well travelled) professional.
That is what struck me most about the pie in Alan Joyce's face. I am sure it instantly took him back to his own memories of bullying and violence and the fear they still produce.
I learned to survive high school by keeping my head down and never confronting this issue.
A well meaning AFF contributor recently sent me a message suggesting I should pull back from these posts for my own peace of mind.
But the fact that I still feel that fear is the reason I persist.
Hopefully one day everyone will have their awareness raised as you have and in the future no one will need to feel that fear.
I don't want to destroy anyone's life, however abhorrent (and frankly, medieval) I might find their opinion.
I just want to stop them destroying the lives of people like me.
 
Freedom from discrimination doesn't mean you can say what you want, when you want if you know those views are harmful or likely to incite hatred, bring contempt or otherwise be harmful.

We have laws against that for good reason.

You are essentially promoting the right to express anti-Semitism, racisim, and homophobia, because to argue against someone with those views is 'reverse discrimination'.

There are a million and one issues that people can talk about that don't involve spreading of ignorance and harm.

It's actually very simple - if you don't discriminate, or wish to promote discriminatory ideas, your life can't be 'actively destroyed' by those who point out the fallacy on which the original beliefs are based.

Wow. I don't know where you learnt to read or obviously i completely misunderstand my own writing. No point even trying to respond or continue a conversation. For someone who claims to be an advocate of free speech, ignore the point, take things out of context and ignore the message because it doesn't suit.

*lol*
 
I am not talking comments. I am talking real lives that are actively destroyed because of the reverse discrimination that exists. Unlike some people who talk about the implied discrimination and how upset it makes them, I am talking real discrimination that if was the other way around would be lengthy prison sentences as a hate crime. Unfortunately many anti-discrimination proponents believe that is only possible for discrimination to go one way and many of them sit in our parliaments and court benches (and certainly in this forum).

I am an advocate against any form of discrimination, not just one side.

Stalin was more forgiving of dissenting points of view than certain parties of our society.


Reverse discrimination you say?
Bullying from both sides, you say?

Name one Australian teenager who was driven to commit suicide by bullying because they were a christian.
 
Wow. I don't know where you learnt to read or obviously i completely misunderstand my own writing.

To be fair, I could not specifically tell what you were talking about, so it could be easy to completely `misunderstand. It was hard to tell if the discrimination you were talking about - did relate to views held, views promoted, an inherent characteristic (such as sex, race, sexuality etc), or other reason?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you - just a bit hard to interpret what you were saying.
 
Name one Australian teenager who was driven to commit suicide by bullying because they were a christian.

To be fair, I for one would not be surprised if children who have a non-mainstream christian upbringing get bullied because of it, and it is entirely possible for that to lead to suicide. Anything that singles people out as different to the "majority" (in a particular situation) can attract a degree of discrimination and bullying.
 
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I am totally disgusted that I can't post any response on any forums/newspapers due to the abject fear friends and family have over the vindictive and malicious nature of certain parts of society who are happy to actively destroy the lives of people who don't agree with them.

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I am not talking comments. I am talking real lives that are actively destroyed because of the reverse discrimination that exists. Unlike some people who talk about the implied discrimination and how upset it makes them, I am talking real discrimination that if was the other way around would be lengthy prison sentences as a hate crime. Unfortunately many anti-discrimination proponents believe that is only possible for discrimination to go one way and many of them sit in our parliaments and court benches (and certainly in this forum).

I am an advocate against any form of discrimination, not just one side.

Stalin was more forgiving of dissenting points of view than certain parties of our society.

= anyone should be able to say what they want, even if harmful... and people expressing those views are suffering from reverse discrimination if they get called out (by people who don't agree with them).

Did you mean something different? Did you have an example of the reverse discrimination to put the matter in context?
 
To be fair, I for one would not be surprised if children who have a non-mainstream christian upbringing get bullied because of it, and it is entirely possible for that to lead to suicide. Anything that singles people out as different to the "majority" (in a particular situation) can attract a degree of discrimination and bullying.


That might be a plausible hypothetical argument but the difference between plausible and true is evidence.
The contention was that reverse discrimination is not only a hypothetical possibility but actually occurs and in fact is more of a problem than the original discrimination.
Is there any evidence that even one such child has taken their own life as a result of such bullying?
 
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= anyone should be able to say what they want, even if harmful... and people expressing those views are suffering from reverse discrimination if they get called out (by people who don't agree with them).

Did you mean something different? Did you have an example of the reverse discrimination to put the matter in context?
Apologies if I was confusing. There is many things I have been asked not to talk about because of the backlash. I could only come down to one example that might not somehow identify people.

I was watching an eisteddfod and a 22 year old gay guy was yelling out to a 14 year boy on stage that he wants to do nasty things to him for about a minute.. There was about 200 15-25yr olds around him (about 20 gay guys and lots of girls) laughing and egging him on probably about 400 others that were within earshot. I was told he was just joking around and it wouldn't be a good idea to make a scene about it. I commented on all those people who heard and was told that they were pretty sure not one person would make a comment and no-one did.

If this was a straight person.. they would be going to jail.
 
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Apologies if I was confusing. There is many things I have been asked not to talk about because of the backlash. I could only come down to one example that might not somehow identify people.

I was watching an eisteddfod and a 22 year old gay guy was yelling out to a 14 year boy on stage that he wants to do nasty things to him for about a minute.. There was about 200 15-25yr olds around him (about 20 gay guys and lots of girls) laughing and egging him on probably about 400 others that were within earshot. I was told he was just joking around and it wouldn't be a good idea to make a scene about it. I commented on all those people who heard and was told that they were pretty sure not one person would make a comment and no-one did.

If this was a straight person.. they would be going to jail.

This is where as an adult you have to use your judgement. If the actions of the 20 year old - straight or gay, to a male or female - were inappropriate, you can step in if you feel you should. You don't need to seek a consensus about what is right and what is wrong. Harm is harm.

It becomes tricky when situations are not black and white. Then it might be worth exploring other avenues such as the venue, principal etc.
 
As I said, real world with real world ramifications. A number of people explained what real world issues would be caused by forcing the issue. And while esseeeayeenn would happily have some teen commit suicide in his quest for vengeance, I would rather not have that on my conscience.
I have already spoken too much to give you your example so I shall depart this thread as I know haters are still gunna hate.
 
I don't like being patronised. I am reminded of men who dismiss women's arguments by accusing them of being hysterical.
My statement was perfectly logical and I am dealing with facts. I live with these particular facts every minute of every day.
We are still regularly subject to homophobic violence. Gay children are still bullied at schools. A 13 year old boy was bullied to death recently in Queensland.
Not one of his classmates saw any consequences for their actions. Instead, they were given grief and trauma counselling!
They were responsible for his death. No one acted to help him while he was alive. But his killers got help to cope with his death!
Meanwhile Safe Schools is being abandoned in NSW because the Catholic Church runs that state government and it wants to see us all dead.
(They also had the former education minister removed because he queried their spending of public funds.)
Our suicide rates are much higher than in the general population. The rate of mental health issues is also much higher.
Youth homelessness and unemployment are higher. Many young gay kids drop out of school because they are rejected by their families and become homeless.
Or because of the bullying they experience at school. I remember being beaten up every day for five years of high school.
This has devastating effects which are lifelong and from which it can be difficult to recover.
In most states discrimination is unlawful but that doesn't mean it doesn't occurr. It does, frequently, in all areas of life.
People are passed over for jobs, or for promotion, or refused rental accomodation, but now they aren't told the real reason.
I once had a client who was unfairly dismissed because his employer and colleagues wrongly thought he was gay.
However he wouldn't let me lodge an antidiscrimination claim (based on perceived not actual sexuality) because he was terrified other people would think he was gay.
And formal discrimination remains in some areas, notably superannuation, aged care and health care.
Further, under commonwealth law and the law in most states and territories, religious institutions are EXEMPT from these anti-discrimination laws.
So religious organisations, including affilliated schools, aged care facilities and hospitals, can legally discriminate against us.
Even though many of these affilliated institutions receive significant government funding.
The homosexual advance defence to murder is still on the books in at least one state and is only now being removed in QLD.
Name one openly gay AFL player (in an actual league team). Oh wait - there aren't any. Do you seriously think not one of them is gay?
They dare not come out because of the discrimination. Just as Ian Thorpe didn't dare to come out while he was a competitive swimmer.
Name one openly gay member of the Australian cricket squad. At the Beijing Olympics there was only one openly gay Australian athelete. Although Matthew is fabulous enough to take the place of 200.
In many walks of life it is difficult to find openly gay people. Yes things have improved but to say we do not experience discrimination is simply wrong.
Every time I change job I keep my sexuality secret until I have confidence that it will be accepted.
I put up with electricians tagging the electrical equipment in my office and referring to me as "that fa_" behind my back.
Because I have learned that making complaints about this will see you labelled a troublemaker.
Recently I overheard a colleague teasing another colleague because he was wearing a pink jumper and suggesting that meant he was "a poofter".
How could I possibly explain how uncomfortable that made me feel?
Yes there are now some successful openly gay people who are positive role models for young people.
But there are also some successful women. That doesn't mean there is no discrimination against women any more. Clearly there is.
The fact that the situation is worse in other countries doesn't mean there are no problems here.
On twitter today a Fairfax political reporter tweeted a photo of a man who hurled homophobic abuse at him and his partner in a Canberra restuarant.
I've been similarly abused by people in road rage incidents, and randomly in shops, at service stations, and especially in the Perth nightlife district of Northbridge.
It is perfectly logical for me to point out that you can't possibly know or understand what we experience because you're not one of us.
And my experiences are factual. I am passionate about this but I am not hysterical.

Sorry for your hearfelt post.
I do not believe any human being should have to undergo discrimination and bullying. Period.

Seems that some portion of society that still does not understand the functionings of a democratic and open society.
 
As I said, real world with real world ramifications. A number of people explained what real world issues would be caused by forcing the issue. And while esseeeayeenn would happily have some teen commit suicide in his quest for vengeance, I would rather not have that on my conscience.
I have already spoken too much to give you your example so I shall depart this thread as I know haters are still gunna hate.

As an adult, if you judged the situation of the 20yr old v 14yr old as inappropriate you have the opportunity to take action. Either directly, or via another channel. Ramifications? If you got the situation wrong and someone laughs at you? Well, that's something you have to assess at the time. It seems it might be playing on your conscience now that you did nothing.
 
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= anyone should be able to say what they want, even if harmful... and people expressing those views are suffering from reverse discrimination if they get called out (by people who don't agree with them).

Did you mean something different? Did you have an example of the reverse discrimination to put the matter in context?

Coopers Brewer has an ad for a civil and respectful conversation on this topic and see the backlash.

Of course, people wont admit it is bullying and a push to stifle free spech and to bully into submission those who don't conform to their views.

Intellectually dishonest and hypocrital behaviour.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/pubs...ality-marketing-campaign-20170313-guxbk8.html
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I bow out of this debate. Whilst it was good trying to flesh out the topic, it is clear that this issue will never be resolved by debate, and on this forum at that.

What started out as should a corporate CEO use his public position to wade into this contentious social issue (don't think he should), has predictably morphed into an attack on Margaret Court and then a wider discussion on SSM.

Now obviously both parties have their strong views, and maybe both sides argue from the position of absolute morality. Whatever.

Now this is a democracy, and not a theocracy, so we respect the rules that we operate under - so it should logically be the will of the people to decide.

Of course, everyone is free to live their life as they choose, in their pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, to quote our American friends. But of course, the life you choose, you better make sure you can face the reality 10 seconds after you die (and if Christians are wrong, and the bible was wrong, they are the most pathetic people on earth - and I guess you could say that for other religions. But if the contrary were true, well, the equation is untenable).

So I stated unequivocally that marriage is between a man and a woman. And if people don't like it, well that's their perogative, and this is a largely an anonymous forum. But if that spills out into practical discrimination and bullying in the public spheres, which mind you, seems to be happening, well, that is hypocritical.

But anyway, good night, and good luck!
 
[MOD HAT]
This thread has seemingly "jumped the shark".

It is now closed.​
[MOD HAT]
 
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