Downgraded from Business Class.

[MEL_Traveller]

Read to page 16 so far, but the "airline ombudsman" it was noted in another topic somewhere ob here.

i would still seek advice outside the airline consumer advocate. I understand their role is to ensure airlines abide by their customer charters. In this case, it seems QF is in line with their customer charter, just that it may be inadequate in terms of compensation.

 

[maninblack]

Fortunately Qantas has a CEO with a deep and abiding concern for customer welfare and goodwill. I remember one time he was so concerned for his customers that he shut down the whole airline with almost no notice

 

[Flying mermaid]

And let's hope this is the ONLY time we ever have to read such a thread.

I cannot believe that paying $15,000 for two seats really means that under the terms and conditions outlined by Q, that there is no guarantee of a seat. If there had been a major equipment malfunction then of course stuff happens. But that is just not what happened here.

I suspect it won't be the last time......In 2008 (I think) there was an engineer's strike and a Qantas plane was delayed out of London. Master FM was flying into Bangkok from Turkey, connecting with the Qantas plane and flying to Sydney. The Qantas plane was delayed 24 hours, so I was having a major stress attack as to what was going to happen to him. (He was flying in J). However Qantas was wonderful -.when he arrived in Bangkok, Qantas had already booked him (and presumably other J passengers) on other planes - he ended up on Emirates. He arrived into Sydney about 1/2 hour late and still made his Canberra connection. A few weeks later he received a letter with an apology for the disruption and a voucher for $500. However it is a meaner, harder world since the financial crisis and an airline that is losing money and propping up Jetstar, does not have the spare money for making generous gestures - just rely on the frequent flyer program to keep people flying with you......(talking of which I wonder if he got original routing status credits and points! I didn't know about things like that then).

 

[NM]

I posted an involuntary downgrade table earlier on in the thread.
Point to point North America to Australia is (or was as at 2012) $1400 from J (D/C/I) to Y. I doubt it will have risen significantly since then.

Lets hope they stick to the table and not calculate based on "fare difference".

 

[Flying mermaid]

Lets hope they stick to the table and not calculate based on "fare difference".

Not totally convinced that table is always used - I had a friend downgraded from PE to Y in March. It was lax-SYD, but the fare was bought in Australia - it was the return leg. She received $200 as the difference but the table suggests $900 unless I am misreading it?

 

[serfty]

...
If QF wants to get technical, the one way journey was JFK-LAX-BNE. ...

... Only the LAX-BNE sector was downgraded, so that may have accounted for approx $2400 of that total fare component ($3250 of the fare for JFK-LAX-BNE, and say 75% of that for LAX-BNE being around $2400). ...

Just to note that this has been clarified - the actual booking was BNE-xLAX-JFK,LAX-BNE. So the entire one-way journey back to Oz being simply LAX-BNE was downgraded.

The current surcharges on an economy (O class) routing on such a journey total $873 of which $680 are Qantas Fuel Surcharges. (The current such for a business (I class) routing total $966 of which Qantas fuel surcharges are $780.)

Taking the booking as a whole, the downgrade was for 42% distance wise. That's $3200 of $7500 or excluding the mainly airline surcharges, $2730.

 

[Ewing]

Not totally convinced that table is always used - I had a friend downgraded from PE to Y in March. It was lax-SYD, but the fare was bought in Australia - it was the return leg. She received $200 as the difference but the table suggests $900 unless I am misreading it?

Just be lucky it wasn't a sale PE fare.. QF might ask for some money back for the downgrade.

Actually pretend I didn't say anything. You don't want to give them ideas.

 

[mannej]

I would have thought ORC would have applied regardless of the situation here.

 

[Pushka]

I suspect it won't be the last time......In 2008 (I think) there was an engineer's strike and a Qantas plane was delayed out of London. Master FM was flying into Bangkok from Turkey, connecting with the Qantas plane and flying to Sydney. The Qantas plane was delayed 24 hours, so I was having a major stress attack as to what was going to happen to him. (He was flying in J). However Qantas was wonderful -.when he arrived in Bangkok, Qantas had already booked him (and presumably other J passengers) on other planes - he ended up on Emirates. He arrived into Sydney about 1/2 hour late and still made his Canberra connection. A few weeks later he received a letter with an apology for the disruption and a voucher for $500. However it is a meaner, harder world since the financial crisis and an airline that is losing money and propping up Jetstar, does not have the spare money for making generous gestures - just rely on the frequent flyer program to keep people flying with you......(talking of which I wonder if he got original routing status credits and points! I didn't know about things like that then).

I can understand that situation though.

We were in the USA when they grounded the 380 fleet. We actually travelled to the USA on THAT plane that blew it engine five days earlier!

People were stranded across the states and when we flew back from NY those of us heading to Sydney were told to meet at the boarding gate while those going to Brisbane and Melbourne were separated. They didn't travel back that day. After the flight arrived in Sydney we were on the transfer bus to Dom and spoke with a guy who had to get back to Oz that day and had been on the cancelled flight and in J. He was just glad he got back home even though in a middle seat in Y and didn't care if he lost his money.

 

[medhead]

Its most unlikely to be calculated that way. Expect it to be something more like this:

Of the approx $7500 paid for the return I class ticket (it was previously noted that $15K for two return fares was paid), the "taxes and surcharges" will be removed, which for such a ticket are likely to be around the $1000 mark. So the "fare" component is say approx 6500 for the 4 sectors. Only the LAX-BNE sector was downgraded, so that may have accounted for approx $2400 of that total fare component ($3250 of the fare for JFK-LAX-BNE, and say 75% of that for LAX-BNE being around $2400).

The economy seat used is likely to be calculated at the full Y fare (yes, I totally agree it should be at lowest fare offered at time of booking, but expect it won't be), being $2166, for a refund of less than $250.

Now, there is no way I believe this to be proper compensation or refund, but I expect that is about all that will actually be available when its processed :evil:. but I hope I am proven wrong. This is based on my own experience of a DONE4 fare with a segment downgraded by BA from J (D) to Y and the way they calculate the "fare difference" between J and Y on a sector.

Now that qantas fuel surcharges are different depending on cabin class, there would have to be some component of fuel surcharge refund.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I can understand that situation though.

We were in the USA when they grounded the 380 fleet. We actually travelled to the USA on THAT plane that blew it engine five days earlier!

People were stranded across the states and when we flew back from NY those of us heading to Sydney were told to meet at the boarding gate while those going to Brisbane and Melbourne were separated. They didn't travel back that day. After the flight arrived in Sydney we were on the transfer bus to Dom and spoke with a guy who had to get back to Oz that day and had been on the cancelled flight and in J. He was just glad he got back home even though in a middle seat in Y and didn't care if he lost his money.

That would have been exciting! I guess my point was that Qantas used to do whatever it took to make up for situations and keep people happy, particularly in premium classes - not so sure they have the resources to do that any more, so we will see more of these take it or leave it scenarios.

 

[Danger]

While I'm glad to hear that our crew did all possible to look after Mr and Mrs EmilyP onboard, the way in which this situation was managed and communicated has been followed up internally and with the customers directly.

Further to EmilyP’s update below, our Customer Care team have since contacted her parents to personally discuss the circumstances, and have offered them a gesture of goodwill over and above our guidelines in recognition of the downgrade and overall unhappy experience.

As some have pointed out, overbooking flights is not exclusive to Qantas. Operational changes such as aircraft types and rolling delays can also play a part in such situations. Our estimates for cancellations and ‘no shows’ are occasionally lower than expected, which is what happened on this occasion. I fully appreciate that we’ve let Mr and Mrs EmilyP down, especially in the way this situation was handled.

For your reference, Mr and Mrs EmilyP were offered alternatives, including the option to overnight at our expense in LAX with confirmed Business seats on QF16 the next day. As this was not an option for them, the ground team confirmed the only available seats.

We hope this remains a one off for Mr and Mrs EmilyP, and hope that Flight Centre are supportive in actioning the refund as per standard procedure. Our Customer Care team will continue to be available to the customers should they wish to follow up.

Your post displays that anotomically large part of the kangaroo that, when used in Australian slang, suggests guts. You've got a big set of them for this post and I mean that with no sarcasm. Thanks for your involvement, particularly considering almost any response would have been met with some detractors.

 

[wandering_fred]

That would have been exciting! I guess my point was that Qantas used to do whatever it took to make up for situations and keep people happy, particularly in premium classes - not so sure they have the resources to do that any more, so we will see more of these take it or leave it scenarios.

Alas QF needs to careful that the "take it or leave it scenarios" are the seats rather than the airline. Perhaps they have a window with the acquisition of the 787s, to renew customer interest. I hope the opportunity is not "blown".

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[RAM]

EMILYP - Disgraceful behaviour by the US contract ground staff that Q Australia are directly responsible for. Q cannot 'disown' their duty of care no matter how much they act as if they can. The stress this would have caused your parents is immense and the callous approach taken subsequently just reinforces that adverse result. Separating your parents with no option whilst leaving a seat for a as yet to arrive other business class traveller is very smelly. I wonder whether there was a Q senior person

Actions by RedRoo clearly aimed at limiting bad publicity for Q via spin not substance and really a clumsy attempt to put people off the scent.

Options - all of which can be actioned TOGETHER and recommended order of attack:

1) Call CC line for card issuer, get a case number and start the ball rolling there. It is a big difference how Q reacts when a bigger bully gets in on the act.
2) Call Qld state based consumer affairs (or whatever name is in Qld) and ask for their help and if based in Brisbane, possible face-to-face (sometimes offered if requested).
3) Call Transport Ombudsman and start the ball rolling there (set up in 2012 from memory).

My personal favourite and most effective 3 out of 4 times -

4) Call the Qantas Company Secretary (try general switch but then resort to search via ASX for contact details for company secretary aka Q senior legal/compliance person. This lifts it up to board level and as I said quite often gets the most remarkable response. {Recently had head of online business platform for top 10 company apologise for 50 minutes over what I correctly pointed out were false and misleading T&Cs - the Board does not like hearing of potentially major PR issues}.

5) Call Alan Jone's or Ray Hadley's etc producer (via switch) and relate the story, works even better if the parents are not super fit souls. Description of the softly, softly approach, especially reiterated by them would cost between $500,000 to $1m in PR damage if picked up by the producer. It is topical as end of year holidays are fast approaching and big booking season getting underway.

6) Call TV Current Affairs (whatever channel) and see if its a slow news week for them. "Timely warning for families looking to book their Christmas holidays - here's something you should know about before you make that booking with Qantas." Imagine the promos! Especially a piece about how Q can increase their profits at your expense and the Aust Govt does not say boo....

The stated facts need to be carefully documented ASAP if they have not been done so already. If your parents have a taxi receipt or anything that shows the time they arrived at the airport (including messages you received etc). The more detail, comments they recall the better but make sure it is as accurate as possible.

Keep a record of every communication from Q and FC - date, time, duration, who spoke with etc.

From what has been reported:

+ That your parents where on the flight manifest as business
+ That a late no-show resulted in your mother getting a seat at a late stage (so your parents were singled out for some unstated reason)
+ That your parents were early to check-in (any evidence? Time stamp on boarding pass for Y etc)

Need to establish whether they were told getting downgraded several hours before flight scheduled for take-off. Within Aust passengers from a cancelled or oversold flight normally do not see other passengers bumped on subsequent flights to make way for them - they just have to wait or use another carrier. Would be interesting to find out whether any mechanical defect etc logged for other flights.

Good luck!

 

[Rebekkap]

@EmilyP, this is the Airline customer advocate (that some upthread have referred to as the airline ombudsman) Home

It might be worth a try - I don't have any experience dealing with them (Qantas, to their credit, has always come to the party very quickly on the few occasions I have had cause to complain. I'm sorry this happened to your parentals).

cheers
RebekkaP

 

[RAM]

Good article about the Airline Ombudsman.

Australian Airline Customer Advocate | Resolving Complaints

...when you ring the office number, Ms Lines answers the phone.

To get this far, however, you need to have tried and failed to get satisfaction from the airlines themselves. There are five participating carriers: the two Qantases, Qantas and Jetstar, the two Virgins, Virgin and Tigerair, and the regional independent, Rex (short for regional express).


Two thirds (283 or 65.97 per cent) of complaints were resolved to the satisfaction of complainants and Ms Lines says the rest were passed on to state consumer affairs departments for resolution. In all, 31 per cent of complaints were about booking cancellations and/or refund requests, 18 per cent about flight delays or cancellations, 16 per cent about fees or charges, 9 per cent about airline websites and 5 per cent about ticket terms and conditions.

The average time it took the advocate to resolve complaints – 14.3 days or just inside three working weeks – was well inside the target four weeks or 20 working days.

 

[Dalek]

I flew out of LAX last Friday night on QF12 and it was chaos in the lounge. I'm pretty sure our flight was full as well as I had been watching the loadings in hope of a J points upgrade. The airport staff told me my chances were somewhere between slight and none. Fortunately I did get a beep at the gate for a move to Y+.

Interestingly I was travelling with a colleague who told me that he and his family on a previous trip from LAX were asked if they were prepared to give up their Y seats and travel the next day since the flight was overbooked. As they weren't in a hurry they agreed to offer up their tickets and were told by Qantas that they would receive J seats the following day plus some financial compensation on top. They thought they had won the lotto with this deal. Seems like a much fairer way of dealing with the overbooking situation, win -win for everyone.

 

[DC3]

Slightly OT, but I always leave a bit of slack when booking the return flight back to SYD from overseas. Usually it all goes according to plan, but last year in LAX, when I checked the booking on-line, the day prior to the LAX-SYD flight, I noticed that the A380 had turned into a 747. .

I rang QF and at my request was then moved to the following day's A380 LAX-MEL, with a connecting flight to SYD and returning a day later than planned. Of course there needed to be availability for this, but I was impressed with the customer service that I received, and it was a FASA (for 2 pax) and there were still 2 seats available in F. . A bit of luck there as well.

 

[vitagen]

I cant believe the way your folks were treated... Just opt for a charge back. I did that when QF canned Per-Sin and they rebooked me on JQ and refused to follow their own policy even after calling them a few times to go on MH. its like buying a 5 series bmw for 100k and getting a 3 series worth 50k and only getting 10k refund. What a crock.

 

[vitagen]

Just to add to above. EK offered me return flight to US if i chose to catch the next flight out of JFK.