Downgraded from Business Class.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Hang on, the only reference to misleading I can relating to RR and misleading is #631 relating to QF staff being on the flight in F and premium cabins.

That was debunked considering that this was a 3-class service with no F, and RR has stated there were no staff member in the premium cabins.

Correction, no staff were 'on loaded', different to no staff being on the flight in premium cabins. Staff are only on loaded when they are on standby. If they are confirmed, that is another story. But I'm not trying to stoke conspiracy theories here

 

[amaroo]

A little humour...

The call to close this thread reminds me of a line in a movie "I'd rather talk about" ...

Parts played...

Tally Man - QF algorithm

Daylight come and we want to go home - The passengers

6" 7" 8" Bunch of Bananas - The price paid by the passengers

The hand - QF LAX staff

[video=youtube;AQXVHITd1N4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQXVHITd1N4[/video]

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Hang on, the only reference to misleading I can relating to RR and misleading is #631 relating to QF staff being on the flight in F and premium cabins.

That was debunked considering that this was a 3-class service with no F, and RR has stated there were no staff member in the premium cabins.

Correction, no staff were 'on loaded', different to no staff being on the flight in premium cabins. Staff are only on loaded when they are on standby. If they are confirmed, that is another story. But I'm not trying to stoke conspiracy theories here

That's just semantics. You're not sitting on a grassy knoll in front of a book depository by any chance are you?

There is no way with a flight that full that any staff would have either been confirmed on the flight nor received a boarding pass for Y/PE/J at checkin. For that to happen there has to be a decent buffer of seats in the applicable cabin and that certainly wasn't the case.

I read the quote (below) as no staff, whether on duty travel or leisure travel were onboard that flight at all in either J or PE (and I'm guessing in whY also as the flight was full to the max). Just to reiterate, QF16 is operated by a 744 there is no F cabin so there were no duty travel nor or leisure travel staff there either.

It's likely the term 'onloaded' was used because any staff would have been placed on standby the second they checked in due to the flight being full and as such would have had to be onloaded from standby into a seat if at the end of checkin (flight close) if there were noshow pax.

I can assure you that there were no Qantas employees onloaded in Business or Premium Economy on QF16 LAX/BNE 16OCT, on either Duty or Leisure Travel categories.

 

[RooFlyer]

A little humour...

The call to close this thread reminds me of a line in a movie "I'd rather talk about" ...

Parts played...

Tally Man - QF algorithm

Daylight come and we want to go home - The passengers

6" 7" 8" Bunch of Bananas - The price paid by the passengers

The hand - QF LAX staff

<snip>

So, who's the tarantula? (Now, let me guess ... )

 

[drron]

Thanks amaroo.I am an old Harry Belafonte fan so that was appreciated.

 

[Rebekkap]

That's just semantics. You're not sitting on a grassy knoll in front of a book depository by any chance are you?

There is no way with a flight that full that any staff would have either been confirmed on the flight nor received a boarding pass for Y/PE/J at checkin. For that to happen there has to be a decent buffer of seats in the applicable cabin and that certainly wasn't the case.

I read the quote (below) as no staff, whether on duty travel or leisure travel were onboard that flight at all in either J or PE (and I'm guessing in whY also as the flight was full to the max). Just to reiterate, QF16 is operated by a 744 there is no F cabin so there were no duty travel nor or leisure travel staff there either.

It's likely the term 'onloaded' was used because any staff would have been placed on standby the second they checked in due to the flight being full and as such would have had to be onloaded from standby into a seat if at the end of checkin (flight close) if there were noshow pax.

My guess is Red Roo didn't want to say there were no staff who were passengers as a blanket statement because sometimes staff on holidays purchase ordinary fares, same as the rest of us do, and don't rely on staff travel entitlements because they have a need to be somewhere on a specific day or at a specific time and don't want to risk stand by travel. Without an exhaustive cross checking process, you wouldn't even know they were Qantas staff.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

My guess is Red Roo didn't want to say there were no staff who were passengers as a blanket statement because sometimes staff on holidays purchase ordinary fares, same as the rest of us do, and don't rely on staff travel entitlements because they have a need to be somewhere on a specific day or at a specific time and don't want to risk stand by travel. Without an exhaustive cross checking process, you wouldn't even know they were Qantas staff.

I think Red Roo was purely talking about QF staff on QF staff travel in J or PE cabins in response to a post by an individual who was trying to suggest that people on staff travel may have travelled in J at the expense of commercial pax which wasn't the case.

If there were any staff onboard who purchased regular fares on the QF website which are available to anybody it's highly likely to have been a discount economy fare of some kind so offloading those pax from the economy cabin wouldn't not have helped the OP's parents getting their J seats back.

 

[maninblack]

Funny. MEL-CNS and SYD-CNS flights used to regularly see the J cabin half full of Australian Airlines and later JQ cabin crew deadheading it to CNS whilst paying customers could not get FF redemptions or sometimes even paid seats in the cabin. I remember years ago my parents were once "moved" from their preferred and allocated F seats on a QF flight back from LAX and were placed in the 'smoking section' in the third row in front of a well known business identity and chain smoker. My father who is not shy introduced himself to the recipients of his row 1 seats and discovered that they were senior QF execs. Of course that was a long time ago, things like that couldn't happen these days

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I remember years ago my parents were once "moved" from their preferred and allocated F seats on a QF flight back from LAX and were placed in the 'smoking section' in the third row in front of a well known business identity and chain smoker. My father who is not shy introduced himself to the recipients of his row 1 seats and discovered that they were senior QF execs. Of course that was a long time ago, things like that couldn't happen these days

The point is that the above scenario didn't happen in this instance.

 

[DC3]

Smoking not permitted, now.

 

[Danger]

Business idea: check-in bot for J-seat protection. Will automatically check you in when it hits T-24 and get you single-digit sequence numbers, for the cost of 1$ per check-in.

Paging trippin_the_rift.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Paging trippin_the_rift.

I was thinking the other day how useful it would be if someone was tracking the loads of every flight so you could rewind and look at what fare buckets were sold/unsold on a particular flight on any given day. Could potentially be handy for the OP, especially if every seat in the cabin wasn't a revenue class.

Too many biz travel ideas and not enough time!

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

The point is that the above scenario didn't happen in this instance.

There are two elements to your argument I do not agree with:
1. Trusting the company rep's statements - these have been proven false in the past (ASA's anyone?)
2. The statement was not about there being no QF staff in premium cabins, it was about no QF staff being on loaded, there is a big difference.

Regardless, these factors probably had zilch to do with the folks being downgraded, and more to do with overbooking and the flow-on affects of QF's USA strategy making this the last flight out for connecting pax from a notoriously unreliAAble feeder carrier.

Either way, it was poorly handled on the ground and after the fact. You can be a rusted on QF apologist all you like, but a poor customer experience was delivered.

QF's service recovery ex-AU is some of the best I've experienced, however outsourced international ports have real issues, many addressed by the previous management that are creeping back in, probably due to a cost control over customer experience strategy.

QF needs to be careful that in 'turning a corner' they don't turn their back on the very loyal customers they'll need to save it.

 

[Quickstatus]

Qantas please compare this thread with a similar situation with VA back in 2011. Compensation for an downgrade from J to PY was $2200, and the thread had only 11 posts before it was closed.

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ty-gold-downgraded-buisiness-class-28934.html

Instead Qantas chose to refund only $700 and the anger/disappointment at your actions has resulted in 812 posts to this thread.



Qantas like many other carriers have chosen to concentrate most of their marketing/ enhancement dollar toward their premium classes, and at the same time trying to turbocharge their Frequent flyer Program by allowing many points to be accumulated and SC specials allowing elevation of more pax into higher Tier Status. Additionally capacity is being moderated or redirected to high season demand.

This means that demand for J seats (whether revenue or award or upgrade) is rising. (QF does have a superior product in this case).

This also means the risk if downgrade is not "extremely rare"

So J pax are now paying more upfront but they are also increasing the possibility of a downgrade or a denial of boarding due to overbooking.


So for QF pax the costs seem to be:

Downgrade: An "enhanced" refund of the difference between fare paid and a full fare price whY on day of departure ("enhanced" because QF says its over and above IATA guidelines).

Denial of boarding and rebooking to another day: Associated costs not covered by QF staying in a foreign port, lost wages, missed appointments etc etc.


A whY pax will never be downgraded unless there is a later Jetstar flight, they may have to wait till the next day or days to board.



Qantas premium passengers with Tier Status pay more but when downgraded, they will pay even higher costs if their cabin is overbooked compared with a discount Y best fare of the day non status passenger.

 

[CMA222]

Qantas please compare this thread with a similar situation with VA back in 2011. Compensation for an downgrade from J to Y was $2200, and the thread had only 11 posts before it was closed.

While 813 posts is one measure of the interest in the issue, the 55,066 views is the silent indication of the alarm AFF's have with the resolution.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Downgrade: An "enhanced" refund of the difference between fare paid and a full fare price whY on day of departure ("enhanced" because QF says its over and above IATA guidelines).

this could have easily been solved by yield management going into the flight and designating the downgraded passengers' seats into N, O or Q class. Hence guaranteeing a full and proper refund.

Qantas: why wasn't this done?

 

[Quickstatus]

this could have easily been solved by yield management going into the flight and designating the downgraded passengers' seats into N, O or Q class. Hence guaranteeing a full and proper refund.

Qantas: why wasn't this done?

In my opinion Qantas has not done the right thing because they think they are doing the right thing by going over and above IATA guidelines. I hope their motivation is not because they think they can get away with it



The passengers affected have been modest in their pursuit of Qantas over this. Others would have ensured widespread social media and traditional media exposure of this unacceptable corporate conduct

 

[Anna]

When I was downgraded by QF from J to Y on an award ticket last century, I remember that I had to argue with QF for some time before I achieved what I considered was a fair resolution.

When it happened to me, it was in the days when a one way award fare cost more than half the points of a return award fare (the same as how buying a one way int fare with cash these days is usually more than half the return fare).

I can't remember the exact figures but let's say my return J award was 100,000 points and a return Y award would have been 50,000 points. But if I had chosen to go one way in J and one way in Y it was not going to cost 75,000 points but more like 90,000 points. QF's initial offer to me was to refund me 10,000 points "because that's what it would have cost you to book one way in J and one way in Y". My argument that I would never have booked it that way voluntarily fell on deaf ears for quite some time. I had to keep escalating it until eventually QF saw sense and refunded me 25,000 points in recognition that the fact that I flew one way in Y and one way in J was involuntary on my part. I was happy with that because in Y I was treated well by the cabin crew and at the end of the day travelling in Y is not the end of the world and is better than not travelling at all.

Anyway, my point for the OP is to persist until you get an offer that you think is fair and don't accept any nonsense about "IATA guidelines" which are clearly inequitable and unrealistic.

 

[Quickstatus]

4.7 Seating Selection and Allocation

Although we will try to accommodate your seating need or choice, we do not guarantee you any particular seat. We may need to change your seat at any time, even after you have boarded the aircraft, for operational, safety or security reasons.If we need to ask you to downgrade for any reason, we will at your option:

• provide you with an appropriate refund of the difference in fares (or an appropriate credit of Qantas Points in the event that you are travelling on a Qantas Frequent Flyer Award), or
• accommodate you on a reasonable alternative available flight on our service

Qantas chooses to use the difference between Fare paid and Full fare available on the day of departure rather than difference in fares on the day of purchase

It should be the between the equivalent fare bucket;

So J Saver to Y saver, or J full fare to Y full fare or J sale to Y red e deal.



Qantas probably uses this logic:

For downgrades technically the passenger is cancelling their J fare and rebooking on the lowest price Y fare available at the time on the same flight. Sounds logical, but no "reasonable" passenger will ever do that because there is no "Value" to the passenger. Additionally As Anna correctly argued this is an involuntary action imposed by Qantas on the passenger.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Qantas please compare this thread with a similar situation with VA back in 2011. Compensation for an downgrade from J to Y was $2200, and the thread had only 11 posts before it was closed.

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ty-gold-downgraded-buisiness-class-28934.html

Actually the $2,200.00 was the difference between J (fare paid) & PE (cabin travelled in) so one can assume that had the pax been forced to travel in whY that they would have received even more money.

2 Hours later and she called again and offered me a voucher for AU$2200 which is the difference in the price of the business class ticket I had purchased and the PE seat I flew on.