Downgraded from Business Class.

[JohnK]

Whilst I certainly agree that the way the refund is calculated is unacceptable, that's not the main issue at all - the main issue is how pax with confirmed J seats could be bumped at check-in. That's the core problem.

I don't think that's the core problem.

Why should someone paying for economy not have the same rights as business class? Because they have paid less? Sometimes there is not a lot of difference. e.g. Economy ex-SYD during peak times vs cheap premium fares ex-TPE during sales but returning during peak times.

As we know overselling occurs all the time. It is how it is handled that matters the most along with compensation and any refund.

e.g. Back in August I booked a BNE-CNX return in Qantas for June 2015? Why should the price I paid for the airfare or the order of check-in on the day have anything to do with whether I am a candidate to be bumped.

Qantas has my money. If for whatever reason I involuntarily lose my seat on any of those flights then Qantas would want to compensate me for the inconvenience. Even to the point of accommodating me on another carrier if that is what I choose.

Overselling is common practice. Dealing with overselling is not and that is what matters....

 

[amaroo]

QF need to review their response/compensation when this rubbish occurs ... taking a look at BA and how they handled their old clapped out F cabins would be a good start.

If you pulled the short straw and got stuck on an OF (old F cabin) bird - BA would compensate you 50K Avios ...you still got the F cabin/service/meal/drinks/bed/benefits.

QF are running a very poor last compared to a few comparisons (VA, AA, BA) raised in this thread!

 

[MelUser]

Before downgrading, check in staff should ask passenger or AFF or Australian Frequent Flyer means anything to them!

 

[RAM]

Thanks for the clarification.
Many people are alleging many things it's difficult to keep track of it at times.

Red Roo has stated AFAIK that QF have apologised to EmilyP's parents for the handling of this matter at LAX.
They have offered them FF points and a voucher in addition to the refund which will be processed by their TA.
Everyone here, myself included thinks that the TA refund isn't likely to be fair or even close to what the actual fare difference in the real world would be. I wholeheartedly believe that this event has exposed to a wider audience that outwith EU 261/2004, airline compensation policies are woefully inadequate and should be looked at.
I do not believe that Red Roo posting on behalf of QF has attempted to mislead us in any way and in fact they have been fairly frank in the replies to this thread. I also do not believe that Red Roo is implying that the customers are at fault in this case and I don't understand what has caused you to infer that.

What caused me to infer that is Red Roo alleging that Q have been misrepresented but not identifying what it was amongst the plethora of details provided about the incident and follow-up answers provided by the acquaintances.

Equally in earlier/later responses Red Roo could have come straight out and said: (Only if true mind you!)

A) Unfortunately we over-sold the aircraft by x seats in the expectation of no-shows. Q have recognised that for Friday departures from LAX this appears to be happening too often and causing customer inconvenience so we will re-examine our yield mgmt of that particular route to minimise inconvenience for passengers in the future.
B) There were no Q staff +/or close family who were placed into business or premium economy ahead of the passengers that were downgraded on that flight nor the X passengers who were unable to board.
C) We acknowledge there could be the perception that this is being used as a revenue enhancement which could not be further from the truth. In the interests of fair play we will fully refund, including the proceeds from the TA, the price differential between what the inconvenienced and poorly treated customers paid for their business class tickets and the discount economy ticket price at the time they originally bought their business class tickets.
D) In hindsight I should not have alleged misrepresentation by the parties associated with these two passengers.

It is capped off by Red Roo's disappointment -'disappointed to read that we had been misrepresented'

That only inflames the situation not defuses it.

 

[Princess Fiona]

What caused me to infer that is Red Roo alleging that Q have been misrepresented but not identifying what it was amongst the plethora of details provided about the incident and follow-up answers provided by the acquaintances.
it.

Ok so because Red Roo is stating that QF have been misrepresented here without saying what was misrepresented this means that QF believe the downgraded couple are at fault?

" RR then goes on to allege that there was misrepresentation, and imply that most posters have got it wrong. Really Q is the aggrieved party that these two people who paid full fare (or what most would consider a full fare) are at fault in this case."

That's a pretty long bow to draw IMHO. I personally think that QF are stating the obvious. We are only hearing one side of the conversations the couple have had with customer care. Nowhere have Red Roo or QF blamed the customers.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ok so because Red Roo is stating that QF have been misrepresented here without saying what was misrepresented this means that QF believe the downgraded couple are at fault?

" RR then goes on to allege that there was misrepresentation, and imply that most posters have got it wrong. Really Q is the aggrieved party that these two people who paid full fare (or what most would consider a full fare) are at fault in this case."

That's a pretty long bow to draw IMHO. I personally think that QF are stating the obvious. We are only hearing one side of the conversations the couple have had with customer care. Nowhere have Red Roo or QF blamed the customers.

I agree with you PF - Qantas has not said the passengers are at fault in terms of any action at LAX.

Although what is slightly odd is this: on the one hand QF says they can't comment directly because of privacy, but on the other they are willing to express their opinion that the passengers have been less than truthful and/or misleading.

It is quite possible the passenger heard and reported a different outcome to that which Qantas was trying to convey. This is not unexpected when you have an aggrieved party seeking redress. But to say they have been misleading is a big step. They have, in a sense, accused (blamed) the customer for not telling the truth about their ongoing discussions with QF.

What is one inference this potentially leads to? That QF is being more than reasonable, and the passenger is not.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I think it is now a must to OLCI whereas in the past I only did it occasionally.

What this is going back to is the good old days where it was obligatory to reconfirm your flights the day before. This was in the pre internet, pre mobile days and a bit of a pain in the rear end, if you were travelling in remote areas overseas. The idea was you had to phone an overseas Qantas office and confirm that you really were turning up - if not and you just turned up on the day your seat wasn't guaranteed, even though it was a confirmed booking. Was absolutely wonderful when that disappeared, but now it looks like it is back - except given the new name of "online checkin". Of course much easier with all the tech wonders we have, but I can still see scenarios where it could be hard to do - e.g on safari or in a disadvantaged area of a country.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

What this is going back to is the good old days where it was obligatory to reconfirm your flights the day before. This was in the pre internet, pre mobile days and a bit of a pain in the rear end, if you were travelling in remote areas overseas.

The idea was you had to phone an overseas Qantas office and confirm that you really were turning up - if not and you just turned up on the day your seat wasn't guaranteed, even though it was a confirmed booking.

Was absolutely wonderful when that disappeared, but now it looks like it is back - except given the new name of "online checkin". Of course much easier with all the tech wonders we have, but I can still see scenarios where it could be hard to do - e.g on safari or in a disadvantaged area of a country.

Although it doesn't matter if the pax themselves are 'no-comms' as a relative could do OLCI on their behalf as long as they had the pnr. They could then email the pdf doc to them.

It wouldn't matter if they couldn't print the boarding passes out as they'd still be showing as checked in.

Makes me wonder what would've happened if the OP's boarded with the 'new' downgraded b/passes at the gate reader but sat in what should've been their rightful seats in J displaying their J boarding passes to the cabin crew who had them on either the ipad or a manifest as sitting there.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Although it doesn't matter if the pax themselves are 'no-comms' as a relative could do OLCI on their behalf as long as they had the pnr. They could then email the pdf doc to them.

.

Yes I am planning to do this for Master FM's flight in December - no way he has time at the moment with the hours he seems to be working - or in typical young male fashion would think about doing it....

 

[RAM]

I would disagree with that JP, because downgrades or denial of carriage can occur as QF condition of carriage does not guarantee a seat.

There can be many causes and that is an issue in itself

RedRoo says their Yield management is among the best in the world. And I would agree they get it right most of the time but not always. And certainly its not a 'extremely rare" situation.

These situations can occur due to overbooking, technical, security or other reasons like QF staff sneaking in nod nod wink wink from checkin crew, celebrity wanting last minute travel, broken seat....there are many possible reasons including needing to transfer pax from other flights gone tech etc etc.

Most people can understand the involuntary bumping to another day and even a downgrade. (I would rather fly another day)

what most will not accept is the way QF has dealt with the issue:


Again QF's policy of an appropriate refund in event of a involuntary downgrade is the difference between fare paid and Full fare in downgraded cabin on the day of travel. As though the passenger cancels their J seat paid for a while ago sometimes weeks to months to only buy a full fare economy on the same flight. No reasonable person would do that because they know there is no value in it.


The customer should be made whole. QF's actions does not make the person whole.

Well picked up - Red Roo's comment that their Yield management is among the best in the world may indeed be absolutely correct.

Q Mgmt and other airlines may indeed think that over-selling flights, downgrading full fare passengers and making a profit out of the experience is indeed a best-of-class Yield Mgmt Regime.

As this thread clearly shows - customers ranging from pointy end persisters to battery hen battlers - clearly disagree.

Mistakes happen deliberate company policy is a totally different matter. Company policy that profits at the deliberate expense of customers is not a long term wealth creation strategy - but then again neither are Q mgmt.

 

[ellen10]

Just caught up with a friend tonight who arrived home yesterday.
She flew home from Dallas Fort Worth on QF in economy. She said that a group of 8 people were pulled aside at the gate and told that they were not going to be boarded as the plane was full and they were worried about strong head winds.
There was a big stink at the gate but in the end they were not boarded and their bags were to be taken off.
She said the flight was late arriving in Sydney by 1.5 hours, due to the strong winds.

The same person did a Mississippi River cruise which was overbooked. She was a solo passenger but had paid an extra premium to have the cabin to herself. When she arrived at her room there were 2 other suitcases inside the cabin. She was moved to the pilots room which was up on top deck, but the room was tiny. She was offered half her fare back and free port tours. Later in the evening after dinner she was moved to another cabin, as a couple did not show up for the cruise. Apparently these river cruises are often overbooked relying on "no shows".

 

[love_the_life]

Another example of excellent yield management? I suppose the head winds can't be helped but a bit late to leave it till the passengers are at the gate IMO.

 

[Baysider]

Another example of excellent yield management? I suppose the head winds can't be helped but a bit late to leave it till the passengers are at the gate IMO.

Excellent point. If the winds came up that suddenly that the decision had to be made so late, what would have happened if they came up 1 hour later?

 

[amaroo]

Another example of excellent yield management? I suppose the head winds can't be helped but a bit late to leave it till the passengers are at the gate IMO.

You can see how easy some issues can be seen as excuses .... getting flicked so late in the game doesn't fill one with confidence the margin of error has sufficient slack. Geez, the flight is >16 hours and they are worried about weight minutes before closing the door :shock: Sounds like a right royal cough-up !

 

[dajop]

You can see how easy some issues can be seen as excuses .... getting flicked so late in the game doesn't fill one with confidence the margin of error has sufficient slack. Geez, the flight is >16 hours and they are worried about weight minutes before closing the door :shock: Sounds like a right royal cough-up !

How does "at the gate" necessarily translate to "minutes before closing the door". Given how long before the flight many (non status economy) passengers reach the gate, it could have been a hour before the flight, for all we know. Also for all we know the contingency may have been made well in advance (presumably to offload them onto AA flight for LAX leaving 30mins later to connect with QF 108) , but not acted on until the last minute (ie. when flight was closed for checkin) in case there were no shows/misconnects (likely, but not certain), less cargo or a favourable change in meteorological conditions. I was under the impression (from various PA announcements from pilots over the years) weight calculations are finalized not that long before closing the door, not hours in advance.

 

[amaroo]

How does "at the gate" necessarily translate to "minutes before closing the door". Given how long before the flight many (non status economy) passengers reach the gate, it could have been a hour before the flight, for all we know. Also for all we know the contingency may have been made well in advance (presumably to offload them onto AA flight for LAX leaving 30mins later to connect with QF 108) , but not acted on until the last minute (ie. when flight was closed for checkin) in case there were no shows/misconnects (likely, but not certain), less cargo or a favourable change in meteorological conditions. I was under the impression (from various PA announcements from pilots over the years) weight calculations are finalized not that long before closing the door, not hours in advance.

1/60 minutes doesn't make much of a difference to >16 hour flight? If the decision was made much earlier they could have told passengers at checkin.

I'm all for safe flying .... you have to wonder what the margin of error is for such a long flight. It's not like they haven't experience this before on the sector .... it wasn't called QFlate for nothing.

 

[Daver6]

I assume they needed to reduce weight otherwise not enough fuel? In that case, why not swing past whatever the appropriate airport is and top up the fuel on the way?

Just caught up with a friend tonight who arrived home yesterday.
She flew home from Dallas Fort Worth on QF in economy. She said that a group of 8 people were pulled aside at the gate and told that they were not going to be boarded as the plane was full and they were worried about strong head winds.
There was a big stink at the gate but in the end they were not boarded and their bags were to be taken off.
She said the flight was late arriving in Sydney by 1.5 hours, due to the strong winds.

 

[mannej]

Before the armchair experts get too carried away with their conspiracy theories, why not ask JB as to when these calculations regarding offloading weight due to conditions are made.

Until then the conjecture is just that, conjecture without much basis.

 

[Alanslegal]

I assume they needed to reduce weight otherwise not enough fuel? In that case, why not swing past whatever the appropriate airport is and top up the fuel on the way?

If only it was that simple Main reasons would be 1) the flight might miss it's landing spot at destination (and might not get a new one until hours later) 2) flight crew will/may exceed permitted working hours 3) the potential of >400 disgruntled passengers 4) causing possible misconnects to 10's of passengers at destination ... and so on.

 

[amaroo]

Before the armchair experts get too carried away with their conspiracy theories, why not ask JB as to when these calculations regarding offloading weight due to conditions are made.

Until then the conjecture is just that, conjecture without much basis.

AFF wouldn't be much fun if we didn't post opinions! .... has QF been put on the protected species list?