Downgraded from Business Class.

[dajop]

1/60 minutes doesn't make much of a difference to >16 hour flight? If the decision was made much earlier they could have told passengers at checkin.

It's not about the length of the flight though. It's about the length of time you have all the pertinent information about the flight (final passenger and cargo loadings) and most up to date meteorological conditions. As it will incur cost if you decide to deny passengers boarding, isn't it best to leave that to the last feasible point in time. I am sure at DFW the station manager and pilots are well versed in dealing with this particular issue and knows exactly what they are doing, particularly with that slightly later AA flight to LAX that connects with SYD and BNE flights.

 

[mannej]

AFF wouldn't be much fun if we didn't post opinions! .... has QF been put on the protected species list?

Nothing to do with putting QF on the protected species list.

We have a resident expert on AFF, why not ask him the technical side of this dilemma before we speculate?

 

[amaroo]

It's not about the length of the flight though. It's about the length of time you have all the pertinent information about the flight (final passenger and cargo loadings) and most up to date meteorological conditions. As it will incur cost if you decide to deny passengers boarding, isn't it best to leave that to the last feasible point in time. I am sure at DFW the station manager is well versed in dealing with this particular issue and knows exactly what they are doing, particularly with that slightly later AA flight to LAX that connects with SYD and BNE flights.

That's the reason I've mentioned "margin of error" in my posts ... Maybe, I'm overcompensating however, we were told that QF has the best yield management in the business.

 

[amaroo]

Nothing to do with putting QF on the protected species list.

We have a resident expert on AFF, why not ask him the technical side of this dilemma before we speculate?

This thread isn't about fuel/wind/safety ... it's about customer service, policy and poor business practices.

 

[mannej]

This thread isn't about fuel/wind/safety ... it's about customer service, policy and poor business practices.

Considering the comments made, I'd disagree. With the reasoning behind the bumping in the DFW case it forms a big part of it.

 

[amaroo]

Considering the comments made, I'd disagree. With the reasoning behind the bumping in the DFW case it forms a big part of it.

Fair enough, one person's late change - is another's coughup. C'est la vie

 

[dajop]

This thread isn't about fuel/wind/safety ... it's about customer service, policy and poor business practices.

For the original issue, yes. For this latest issue we have some second hand comments about a fuss when people were offloaded due to fuel/wind issues. We do not know how it was handled from a customer service perspective. For all we know those 8 passengers could have been bound for BNE and ended up at their destination 10 mins earlier than originally booked, albeit having has to suffer 3 hrs in AA economy first. We do not know what was offered to those customers, so how can we conclude that it was poor customer service, etc?

If airlines didn't manage their yields well (in a load/profit maximizing way) by playing the probabilities, and only ever sold the seats available (ie. made no allowances for no shows/misconnects) and sold to worst case weather scenarios for long routes like DFW-SYD we would all be paying more for our airfares. My take on many of the comments in the thread is that it is not necessarily about the fact that this happens (to assume it doesn't ever happen would be naive) but the restitution when it does happen.

 

[Pushka]

I'm thinking about the weight of offloading 8 people.

Given the size of say an A380 and people's weights, there could be a variance in thousands of kilos

Offloading just 8 people just doesn't seem to make any difference to me. A veritable drop in the ocean.

Why didn't they offload more luggage instead of passengers?

 

[amaroo]

<snip>

We do not know what was offered to those customers, so how can we conclude that it was poor customer service, etc.

True, but this snippet from the OP provides the best insight we're going to get....going by the treatment the two J passengers received - it's fair speculation that whY passengers endure worse.

There was a big stink at the gate but in the end they were not boarded and their bags were to be taken off.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

True, but this snippet from the OP provides the best insight we're going to get....going by the treatment the two J passengers received - it's fair speculation that whY passengers endure worse.

Not necessarily. Because it may be that the Y class passengers were involuntarily denied boarding, which comes with clearly stated compensation, or alternatively, a clear requirement to get the passenger to their destination with a specified time.

The business class passengers downgraded are not covered by the DOT regulations. So the airline is free to offer them what it deems fit.

 

[amaroo]

Not necessarily. Because it may be that the Y class passengers were involuntarily denied boarding, which comes with clearly stated compensation, or alternatively, a clear requirement to get the passenger to their destination with a specified time.

The business class passengers downgraded are not covered by the DOT regulations. So the airline is free to offer them what it deems fit.

An even worse outcome. This scenario slots straight into poor business practices IMHO.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

An even worse outcome. This scenario slots straight into poor business practices IMHO.

How is it a worse outcome for the Y class passengers?

You stated it's a fair assumption Y class passengers would have endured worse than the OP's friends. I don't actually think that is the case.

 

[amaroo]

How is it a worse outcome for the Y class passengers?

You stated it's a fair assumption Y class passengers would have endured worse than the OP's friends. I don't actually think that is the case.

Worse outcome in regards to QF practices

This scenario slots straight into poor business practices IMHO.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Just caught up with a friend tonight who arrived home yesterday.
She flew home from Dallas Fort Worth on QF in economy. She said that a group of 8 people were pulled aside at the gate and told that they were not going to be boarded as the plane was full and they were worried about strong head winds.
There was a big stink at the gate but in the end they were not boarded and their bags were to be taken off.
She said the flight was late arriving in Sydney by 1.5 hours, due to the strong winds.

It's not so much the flight was full but as that flight would be weight critical they would've had to cap the amount of pax and obviously since accepting passengers at checkin the requirements changed and they would've needed extra fuel for the trip which would have had to be at the expense of payload which in this case was passengers.

Excellent point. If the winds came up that suddenly that the decision had to be made so late, what would have happened if they came up 1 hour later?

Simple - you divert somewhere to get the fuel you need to make your destination in one piece.

You can see how easy some issues can be seen as excuses .... getting flicked so late in the game doesn't fill one with confidence the margin of error has sufficient slack. Geez, the flight is >16 hours and they are worried about weight minutes before closing the door :shock: Sounds like a right royal cough-up !

I'd be interested to hear the point of view from someone such as JB747 as it would quite possibly differ somewhat from your hypothesis.

 

[Daver6]

If only it was that simple Main reasons would be 1) the flight might miss it's landing spot at destination (and might not get a new one until hours later) 2) flight crew will/may exceed permitted working hours 3) the potential of >400 disgruntled passengers 4) causing possible misconnects to 10's of passengers at destination ... and so on.

All good points I hadn't thought of. Hence my question mark. I don't claim to be an arm chair expert...just a pleb with an opinion

 

[amaroo]

Not necessarily. Because it may be that the Y class passengers were involuntarily denied boarding, which comes with clearly stated compensation, or alternatively, a clear requirement to get the passenger to their destination with a specified time.

The business class passengers downgraded are not covered by the DOT regulations. So the airline is free to offer them what it deems fit.

It's not all about rules, law and DOT regulations - don't forget the atrocious communication skills the J passengers were treated with. If the senior management feels it's acceptable to walk away mid conversation with two J passengers ... god only knows how little communication a group of Y passengers would receive.

 

[amaroo]

I'd be interested to hear the point of view from someone such as JB747 as it would quite possibly differ somewhat from your hypothesis.

True. But I doubt a company man* is going to confirm coughups on a public forum!

* This comment is not a comment on anyone that works at QF .... it's just the reality of being employed.

 

[mannej]

Fair enough, one person's late change - is another's coughup. C'est la vie

I can understand your cynicism, but there are others more qualified to comment with all due respect.

 

[JohnPhelan]

Makes me wonder what would've happened if the OP's boarded with the 'new' downgraded b/passes at the gate reader but sat in what should've been their rightful seats in J displaying their J boarding passes to the cabin crew who had them on either the ipad or a manifest as sitting there.

But that's the whole point - it's possible that, had they done OLCI 24 hours prior, they would not have been the ones downgraded!! But we'll never know .....

 

[amaroo]

I can understand your cynicism, but there are others more qualified to comment with all due respect.

Can't disagree with that.

In most cases cynicism = experience