Downgraded from Business Class.

[Bolthead]

VA look pretty good now...

 

[blackcat20]

VA look pretty good now...

Without being cliche, it can happen on any airline. It's all in how that handle it.....

 

[maninblack]

There is VA daily to/from BNE; and IMHO, that's real competition - although being SG has advantages.

Of course VA! Forgot about themOnce they do the new seating on the 777's it's a whole new ball game.

 

[Edge]

simply unacceptable to be bumped when paying ~$15k for two tickets.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

simply unacceptable to be bumped when paying ~$15k for two tickets.

Look at the math: QF sold their seats to someone else. A walk-up business class fare ex LAX one way is AUD8941. The Op's friends paid 'just' $3750 for the one way... that's a whopping +$5200 pure profit to QF over what they were going to get for that seat. Not only that, but QF gets to put the $3750 passenger into an economy seat that is worth about $700. So that's another pure profit of $2800.

All up net gain to QF is potentially $8000... per person!

How much to QF reckon they have to refund to the passenger according to the refund table? $1250.

That's why I struggle to see the refund table as anything more than a goodwill compensation gesture, with the balance of the fare due in addition.

 

[Pushka]

simply unacceptable to be bumped when paying ~$15k for two tickets.

Yes, a decision to pay that much from your own pocket comes with a degree of expectation, and excitement, that you will get what you pay for. Nothing less than reimbursement of discount economy to business fare would be acceptable - because no one pays for full economy once you know your plans.

 

[MelUser]

I think we may be being a little quick to judge.

We really don't know all the facts.

For example - little things like was there a ticket number correctly in the system?

This is where AA is very clear with its reservation when you look it up - unless status is "Ticketed" you know there is a problem and you can phone them.

What's to say this reservation was correctly ticketed, reissued or (as qantas likes to do more) revalidated. Personally I think QF's preference over ticket revalidation and not the AA model of reissuing and giving a new ticket number each time a fairly substantial change occurs could have contributed.

Truth is that we'll never know the technical reason why this downgrade occurred.

Meanwhile "let the storm rage on.."!!

 

[Edge]

Look at the math: QF sold their seats to someone else. A walk-up business class fare ex LAX one way is AUD8941. The Op's friends paid 'just' $3750 for the one way... that's a whopping +$5200 pure profit to QF over what they were going to get for that seat. Not only that, but QF gets to put the $3750 passenger into an economy seat that is worth about $700. So that's another pure profit of $2800.

All up net gain to QF is potentially $8000... per person!

How much to QF reckon they have to refund to the passenger according to the refund table? $1250.

That's why I struggle to see the refund table as anything more than a goodwill compensation gesture, with the balance of the fare due in addition.

QF needs all the money it can get, but this is just crazy. Once a seat is sold, it's sold! I can't believe the people in question are still considering being loyal to Qantas after this.

There's 'good profits' and 'bad profits' - this is definitely an example of bad profits.

 

[vetrade]

If Friday flights between LAX and Oz are regularly oversold and pax often need to be bumped, QF should realise that demand is such that they are very unlikely to be left with any spare seats. Under the circumstances they should therefore stop, or at least markedly reduce, over-selling on those flights.

 

[serfty]

If Friday flights between LAX and Oz are regularly oversold and pax often need to be bumped, QF should realise that demand is such that they are very unlikely to be left with any spare seats. Under the circumstances they should therefore stop, or at least markedly reduce, over-selling on those flights.

I would suggest Qantas Yield Management rely on some pretty complex statistics; but even 100-1 shots win occasionally.

 

[moa999]

I would suggest Qantas Yield Management rely on some pretty complex statistics; but even 100-1 shots win occasionally.

And generally QF Yield Management does a pretty good job - you rarely hear of bumps or calls for volunteers at the gate (almost a regular occurence in the US).

But the reality is we have a second hand story here with only half the facts.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Truth is that we'll never know the technical reason why this downgrade occurred.

Meanwhile "let the storm rage on.."!!

even more reason for QF to address this issue here on AFF.

if it was a 'technical' issue, should we now recommend every passenger contact the call centre to reconfirm their onward journey and ensure ticketing is correct? that's an extra 1000 people a day calling QF to ask something they probably shouldn't need to do.

 

[Pushka]

I think we may be being a little quick to judge.

We really don't know all the facts.

For example - little things like was there a ticket number correctly in the system?

This is where AA is very clear with its reservation when you look it up - unless status is "Ticketed" you know there is a problem and you can phone them.

What's to say this reservation was correctly ticketed, reissued or (as qantas likes to do more) revalidated. Personally I think QF's preference over ticket revalidation and not the AA model of reissuing and giving a new ticket number each time a fairly substantial change occurs could have contributed.

Truth is that we'll never know the technical reason why this downgrade occurred.

Meanwhile "let the storm rage on.."!!

Given that the couple had already travelled one way on the same booking I dont think any of this applies.

 

[i want to fly]

Novice question here; but why wouldn't they have been bumped up to F?

 

[TomVexille]

Novice question here; but why wouldn't they have been bumped up to F?

F would have likely been full

 

[get me outta here]

Once one has negotiated some acceptable 'compensation', how would you want that documented on the spot?

 

[vetrade]

I would suggest Qantas Yield Management rely on some pretty complex statistics; but even 100-1 shots win occasionally.

I agree in general serfty, but MelUser suggested bumping on Fridays was commonplace with 70 pax bumped across 4 flights on one particular Friday.
Maybe the 100-1 shots are getting up too often and it's time QF Yield management was subjected to a swab.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Once one has negotiated some acceptable 'compensation', how would you want that documented on the spot?

A letter prepared while the passenger is in the lounge, delivered before the pax boards.

 

[JohnPhelan]

From the QF policy document:


7. Oversales and Denied Boarding

Airline flights may be overbooked. This means there may be a slight chance that there are more reservations than available seats on your flight, even though you are holding a confirmed ticket. This may be because of commercial overbooking or restrictions that are imposed due to weather conditions or for other safety reasons.
In these circumstances, we will not deny you a seat without first asking for volunteers who are willing to give up their confirmed seat in exchange for compensation for a specified amount, and travel on a later, specified flight. Volunteers will not be entitled to any further payment, refund or compensation.
If there are not enough volunteers, we may need to deny boarding to one or more passengers involuntarily.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily due to an overbooking of our flight for which you have a valid ticket and a confirmed reservation, we will provide compensation as required by law provided that you have met our check-in deadline and other travel requirements and we have not placed you on another flight that arrives within one hour of your original flight schedule. We will provide you with a written explanation of your rights and monetary compensation.



Q. Why did QF not ask for volunteers, as is specified in their own policy?
A. Because it is administratively easier to just 'select' someone to be downgraded. But it is a breach of their own policy.

It's not the first time this has happened, either. I'm told this regularly happens on HNL flights, where there are virtually never any no-shows, but the system still allows overbooking.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

From the QF policy document:


7. Oversales and Denied Boarding

Airline flights may be overbooked. This means there may be a slight chance that there are more reservations than available seats on your flight, even though you are holding a confirmed ticket. This may be because of commercial overbooking or restrictions that are imposed due to weather conditions or for other safety reasons.
In these circumstances, we will not deny you a seat without first asking for volunteers who are willing to give up their confirmed seat in exchange for compensation for a specified amount, and travel on a later, specified flight. Volunteers will not be entitled to any further payment, refund or compensation.
If there are not enough volunteers, we may need to deny boarding to one or more passengers involuntarily.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily due to an overbooking of our flight for which you have a valid ticket and a confirmed reservation, we will provide compensation as required by law provided that you have met our check-in deadline and other travel requirements and we have not placed you on another flight that arrives within one hour of your original flight schedule. We will provide you with a written explanation of your rights and monetary compensation.

Q. Why did QF not ask for volunteers, as is specified in their own policy?
A. Because it is administratively easier to just 'select' someone to be downgraded. But it is a breach of their own policy.

It's not the first time this has happened, either.

That clause doesn't help the OP's friends, as they weren't denied boarding.

Do we know if QF asked for volunteers? It doesn't state the asking for volunteers needs to occur in front of other pax. This could have been separately.

It might however be worth following that up with a letter to the USA Department of Transport (if the OP's friends have the time!) to find out if correct procedure was followed. QF was fined $90,000 earlier this year for not following procedure in the USA.

DOT procedures are stated here: http://www.dot.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

[h=3]Overbooking[/h]Overbooking is not illegal, and most airlines overbook their scheduled flights to a certain extent in order to compensate for "no-shows." Passengers are sometimes left behind or "bumped" as a result. When an oversale occurs, the Department of Transportation (DOT) requires airlines to ask people who aren't in a hurry to give up their seats voluntarily, in exchange for compensation. Those passengers bumped against their will are, with a few exceptions, entitled to compensation.