Downgraded from Business Class.

[serfty]

I presume check in was in New York, and, I guess (as this has not yet been made clear), QF (agents).

I have not seen how (and in what class) they travelled from New York to LAX.

I agree in general serfty, but MelUser suggested bumping on Fridays was commonplace with 70 pax bumped across 4 flights on one particular Friday.
Maybe the 100-1 shots are getting up too often and it's time QF Yield management was subjected to a swab.

No doubt, and in reality, it depends on what resources those 100-1 shots have. In this case BNEflyer brought this to our awareness at least here. Other PAX so affected may not be aware of AFF or FT.

Some post about such issues on sites like 'notgoodenough.org' and Whirlpool.net.au!

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Unfortunately they are not Australian and do not care.

Not only are not Australian but they aren't Qantas employees either however contract staff still wear the Qantas uniform and as such are the face of the airline to their customers. This is an example of when cheap outsourced labour doesn't do an airline any favours - the chain only being as strong as the weakest link.

Look at the math: QF sold their seats to someone else. A walk-up business class fare ex LAX one way is AUD8941. The Op's friends paid 'just' $3750 for the one way... that's a whopping +$5200 pure profit to QF over what they were going to get for that seat. Not only that, but QF gets to put the $3750 passenger into an economy seat that is worth about $700. So that's another pure profit of $2800.

All up net gain to QF is potentially $8000... per person!

How much to QF reckon they have to refund to the passenger according to the refund table? $1250.

That's why I struggle to see the refund table as anything more than a goodwill compensation gesture, with the balance of the fare due in addition.

Hold your horses Mel_Traveller that is a sweeping statement & just pure guess work on your part and I'm 99% certain that is not the case. When EmilyP said her parents were told "your seats have been sold to someone else" I believe the phraseology used was erroneous & highly likely that it was to accommodate J pax bumped from the same flight the day prior.

For example the people in question were told that they could go the next day in business class but as that flight was full up the front also where do you think those 2 J class seats were going to come from - thin air??? Enter the domino effect.

Load factors ex the US have been extremely heavy early October due not only to school holidays but also the cancellation of a QF8 DFW/SYD flight a couple of weeks ago when the outbound QF7 flight had an air return to SYD about 4 hours out so there's

14F/64J/35W/371Y ​

seats you have to find for an A380 load of pax stranded in DFW with no aircraft which would have put an enormous strain on capacity on all other flights ex LAX.

QF needs all the money it can get, but this is just crazy. Once a seat is sold, it's sold! I can't believe the people in question are still considering being loyal to Qantas after this.

There's 'good profits' and 'bad profits' - this is definitely an example of bad profits.

It's easy to just assume that oversales are purely as a result of selling seats you don't have when the majority of cases as I've suggested above are trying to manage disrupted passengers due to a flight cancellation. It can also be when pax are inbound from another carrier eg AA that's either late or cancelled and they misconnect with their QF flight & need to be reaccommodated.

The above however matters little to the affected passengers because at the end of the day they've still been bumped.

If Friday flights between LAX and Oz are regularly oversold and pax often need to be bumped, QF should realise that demand is such that they are very unlikely to be left with any spare seats. Under the circumstances they should therefore stop, or at least markedly reduce, over-selling on those flights.

See above responses.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hold your horses Mel_Traveller that is a sweeping statement & just pure guess work on your part and I'm 99% certain that is not the case. When EmilyP said her parents were told "your seats have been sold to someone else" I believe the phraseology used was erroneous & highly likely that it was to accommodate J pax bumped from the same flight the day prior.

For example the people in question were told that they could go the next day in business class but as that flight was full up the front also where do you think those 2 J class seats were going to come from - thin air??? Enter the domino effect.

Load factors ex the US have been extremely heavy early October due not only to school holidays but also the cancellation of a QF8 DFW/SYD flight a couple of weeks ago when the outbound QF7 flight had an air return to SYD about 4 hours out so there's

14F/64J/35W/371Y ​

seats you have to find for an A380 load of pax stranded in DFW with no aircraft which would have put an enormous strain on capacity on all other flights ex LAX.



It's easy to just assume that oversales are purely as a result of selling seats you don't have when the majority of cases as I've suggested above are trying to manage disrupted passengers due to a flight cancellation. It can also be when pax are inbound from another carrier eg AA that's either late or cancelled and they misconnect with their QF flight & need to be reaccommodated.

I agree - hence the use of the work 'potential' in my calculations. The calculations however weren't 'guess work', they were using actual fares available as of today. And it is possible that is what took place... a passenger on a higher fare was given a seat in the J cabin over the passenger paying less. Even if the higher fare pax wasn't a 'walk-up'.

It really isn't the passenger's issue if loadings are heavy, or passengers were accommodated from other flights. It should be up to QF to manage that - even proactively booking space on other airlines (VS, UA, NZ, DL) to pick up the seats they need.

EU261 compensation would require the operating airline to perform the above or pay hefty compensation. The fare refund table ($1250) seems to give little incentive. EU261 does.

 

[JohnK]

The mystery here is how people are selected for downgrades or cancellations. Sometimes it is errors in the booking that make the Qantas computer algorithm predict a no show.

But, as unpleasant as it is, it's probably a fact of life. AA goes around cancelling flights and downgrading people all the time!

It's not really good enough though is it?

The aitline makes an obscene profit from oveselling and then offers a pittance as compensation for the downgrade.

They need to ask people if they accept a downgrade or fly the next day. You need to make the inconvenience worth their while.

Luckily has never happened to me and I am dreading the day any airline tries this trick with me. All my annual leave is used up. If I am delayed because I have been involuntarily bumped then they will also need to cover unpaid leave.

The airlines can't have it their way all the time. And the sad part is we will not find out the real reason this occurred.

 

[serfty]

...
EU261 compensation would require the operating airline to perform the above or pay hefty compensation. The fare refund table ($1250) seems to give little incentive. EU261 does.

Maybe not as much compensation as one would think!

The EU regulation allows for "75% of the price of the ticket".

There has been much conjecture what "price of the ticket" actually means.

If it is the whole ticket (i.e. 75% of 7k or $5¼K) in which case, if the flight were out of LHR then QF would certainly think twice before doing such.

Note that earlier this year, amendments were passed (but not yet confirmed/enacted), that would make this 75% of the 'Flight price', being:

‘flight price’ means the value obtained by multiplying the ticket price by the ratio between the distance of the flight and the total distance of the journey(s) covered by the ticket ...

If the downgrade was LAX-BNE then this would be around $1950.

 

[Katie]

What are the chances the odd up-grader or OpUp's were sitting in F or J? That would make my blood boil...

Unlikely to be any in F if the passengers were on QF16 (given they were flying LAX-BNE, but from the details shared, I'm not sure if they were on 16 or 108 and then domestic to BNE).

 

[Katie]

Novice question here; but why wouldn't they have been bumped up to F?

As TomVexille said, F would have likely been full.

OR if the passengers were on QF16, there is no F cabin.

 

[drron]

Sorry to hear what happened to your parents EmilyP.I hope they eventually get proper compensation for this incident.
Fortunately for QF I always fly home from the USA via Asia.If this had happened to me in LAX I would have immediately got on the phone to my neice,a lawyer in NYC,or to one of the lawyers we have become friends with in the US.I would just ask them to call the QF supervisor at LAX starting off-"I have been asked to act for drron......"

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Hi all, I'm asking for a friend here...

Paid BNE-LAX-JFK-LAX-BNE in paid J (I) class. My friends (both Gold FF) have checked in (with 9 bags) but received Y boarding passes. Not W, but Y. They have now missed QF12 and QF94 (as well as DL, VA and NZ flights) and are receiving no co-operation from QF in LAX as to why they have been downgraded.

Does anyone have any idea what may have happened and what compensation they should demand, or how else they could be accommodated? They want to get home ASAP so don't want to fly CX via HKG or stay another night.

Thanks in advance.

Unlikely to be any in F if the passengers were on QF16 (given they were flying LAX-BNE, but from the details shared, I'm not sure if they were on 16 or 108 and then domestic to BNE).

As TomVexille said, F would have likely been full.

OR if the passengers were on QF16, there is no F cabin.

Looking at the OP above (my bolding) it looks like the pax were booked on QF12 LAX/SYD then connecting on a domestic flight SYD/BNE.

 

[Pushka]

Sorry to hear what happened to your parents EmilyP.I hope they eventually get proper compensation for this incident.
Fortunately for QF I always fly home from the USA via Asia.If this had happened to me in LAX I would have immediately got on the phone to my neice,a lawyer in NYC,or to one of the lawyers we have become friends with in the US.I would just ask them to call the QF supervisor at LAX starting off-"I have been asked to act for drron......"

Could I have their phone numbers?

 

[esseeeayeenn]

For me the bottom line here is:
(1) overbooking is an acceptable if not inevitable practice but it is for the commercial benefit of the airline, not PAX.
(2) accomodating people from other cancelled/delayed/overbooked flights is also for the general operational and commercial interests of the airline not just of the PAX concerned.
Therefore, while occasionally bumping people with confirmed tickets from a flight or from a premium cabin due to (1) or (2) might be inevitable:
(a) it is the airline's responsibility to manage (1) and (2) so as to minimise (if not completely avoid) such inconvenience to PAX holding confirmed tickets;
(b) if PAX are bumped it is:
(i) because the airline has failed to do (a); and
(ii) for the operational and commercial benefit of the airline; and
therefore adversely affected PAX should be fully and generously compensated, without unnecessary reference to legal minimums, which are just that: MINIMUMS;
(c) adversely affected PAX should be fully informed, treated with the utmost courtesy and respect, and offered every possible alternative.
The truth of (1) above should not be used to deny, excuse or minimise the truth of (b). The possibility may be commercial reality but each actual occurrence still represents less than best practice by the airline.
(d) Whenever an airline or any other business publishes policies, they should treat those policies as binding on themselves. Failing to do so is tantamount to a breach of contract (although it may not be such at law).

 

[TomVexille]

Sorry to hear what happened to your parents EmilyP.I hope they eventually get proper compensation for this incident.
Fortunately for QF I always fly home from the USA via Asia.If this had happened to me in LAX I would have immediately got on the phone to my neice,a lawyer in NYC,or to one of the lawyers we have become friends with in the US.I would just ask them to call the QF supervisor at LAX starting off-"I have been asked to act for drron......"

Excellent idea. I'll just call up my aunt and uncle.

 

[maninblack]

Looking at the OP above (my bolding) it looks like the pax were booked on QF12 LAX/SYD then connecting on a domestic flight SYD/BNE.

Don't think so. 12 and 94 both depart LAX well before 16. I think that the OP meant they had departed (or were closed) and therefore were not an option.

 

[UP4014]

Light bulb moment, for those members here who pay the Gold AFF; a lawyer is paid a (tiny) retainer we can all use in such moments.

I just wish an airline could be big enough to admit a stuff up, apologise, fix the problem.

No more corp buzz words about moving forward until the actual problems are addressed, please!

Matt

PS and edit, can't fix a problem until you admit to it and show a bit of remorse.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Maybe not as much compensation as one would think!

The EU regulation allows for "75% of the price of the ticket".

There has been much conjecture what "price of the ticket" actually means.

If it is the whole ticket (i.e. 75% of 7k or $5¼K) in which case, if the flight were out of LHR then QF would certainly think twice before doing such.

Note that earlier this year, amendments were passed (but not yet confirmed/enacted), that would make this 75% of the 'Flight price', being:If the downgrade was LAX-BNE then this would be around $1950.

Indeed. I bet you there were no complains from airline companies when they saw that!

Although to be honest, the real impact I think is going to be on long hauls with a mid-point connection, something like that described by the OP. Passengers could suffer a 7, 8 or 9 hour flight in a lower class for not much in return.

The revised text could slip the balance slightly in favour of the airlines downgrading for commercial reasons on multi sector itineraries - but on point-to-point long hauls (maybe with a short connection) it's not going to make much of a difference (if you accept the 'ticket price' was always one-way rather than as a whole).

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Having flown to pretty much all QF serviced international ports around the world, I can say that QF ground staff in the US are utterly abysmal and the worst worldwide.

There was a brief time many years ago when I was able to give some direct feedback around a dinner table to a high ranking QF exec and some improvements were made (AU managers deployed and contractors relieved of their duties) but it would seem they have fallen back into their old ways.

QF needs to get one of their AU airport managers over there to sort this cough out. Oh hang on, they've all left and gone elsewhere...

I certainly feel for the OP's friend's parent's situation. They probably handled it a lot better that I would have!

 

[winfred]

QF needs all the money it can get, but this is just crazy. Once a seat is sold, it's sold! I can't believe the people in question are still considering being loyal to Qantas after this.

There's 'good profits' and 'bad profits' - this is definitely an example of bad profits.

revenue less costs/expenses = profit

I don't think there is any profit as loss of reputation is a cost and it looks like it will be quit high judging on the discussion here so far.

 

[winfred]

I was asked to be downgraded from J to Y for my HKG-MEL flight 3 times in the past 4 years ( I do about 5 of them every year). It was part of my TPE-MEL trip and I was offered 85% of my whole ticket cost (ok, it was a very cheap J ticket) + an Y seat with the adjacent one vacant.

Guess which airline it was.

 

[Ric]

Mmmmm...CX?

 

[winfred]

Mmmmm...CX?

Good guess.
Is it that obvious?