Downgraded from Business Class.

[defurax]

If there are insufficient seats in the class in which you booked, for example due to a change of aircraft, we will offer you the option to travel in a lower class or on the next available flight to your destination in the same class. If we cannot offer you suitable alternative arrangements, we will fully refund the fare for your affected flight.



But whose definition of "suitable alternative arrangements" should be considered - QF's or the passenger's? My money is on QF saying they offered a suitable alternative so stiff!

Maybe a 4 week trip on a merchant vessel is "suitable alternative arrangement". IIRC many LCC contracts stipulate only that the airline will bring you from A to B and they don't have to use a plane to do so.

 

[Jack_OC]

If there are insufficient seats in the class in which you booked, for example due to a change of aircraft, we will offer you the option to travel in a lower class or on the next available flight to your destination in the same class. If we cannot offer you suitable alternative arrangements, we will fully refund the fare for your affected flight.



But whose definition of "suitable alternative arrangements" should be considered - QF's or the passenger's? My money is on QF saying they offered a suitable alternative so stiff!

Why is it you think a refund would have been a good outcome? You know it would be a refund instead of alternative travel arrangements, rather than in addition to, don't you?

As I said earlier, the fare they paid for the affected flight seems to have been approx $3,000 - if they had cancelled their ticket with QF in exchange for $3,000, they would have ended up a lot worse off. First of all, they probably wouldn't have been able to get on another flight that night. It would likely have cost them a lot to purchase a new one way fare home (it could have cost more than $3k, even in Y). A one way J ticket at the last minute would probably have cost $6-8k.

 

[Jack_OC]

Going over old ground here ...
The $700 was not part of the downgrade fare refund. It was described at LAX as an inconvenience payment and was also given to those who chose to fly J the next day - and god knows EmilyP's parents suffered inconvenience and insult !
As for the points offer, I would regard that not only as worthless, but as a total insult - as it carries with it the expectation that one will fly with QF again after being treated so appallingly. It falls into the category of "You can't be serious".
The $500 voucher would I guess balance the taxes that one would have to pay on a 50,000-points flight, giving money back to QF !!! - so again, an insult and essentially worthless. And of course the points and voucher cost QF nowhere near their face value.

If they were sincere QF would have provided the cash equivalent and made up the difference to a reasonable fare difference ... for an inferior fare that EmilyP's parents did not choose to buy and did not want.

But what is a reasonable fare difference between a very deeply discounted J fare and Y? As it is, he flew in Y for about $900 (ignoring non-cash compensation). That's about as cheap as Y gets. When you include the non-cash compensation he flew for free (or even less than free, actually).

Genuine question, what compensation do you think was warranted?

Edited $850 to $900 - mental arithmetic error first time around!

 

[drron]

But what is a reasonable fare difference between a very deeply discounted J fare and Y? As it is, he flew in Y for about $850 (ignoring non-cash compensation). That's about as cheap as Y gets. When you include the non-cash compensation he flew for free (or even less than free, actually).

Genuine question, what compensation do you think was warranted?

The difference between lowest J fare on the day and lowest Y fare.
If this problem is so rare on QF this should be of little concern to QF bean counters.
If they do not soon announce an adjustment in the way they calculate refunds for involuntary downgrades then it is time to agitate for legislation to do just that.

 

[Jack_OC]

The difference between lowest J fare on the day and lowest Y fare.

I don't know what the lowest J fare is, but as I said they seem to have paid about $3,000 for the J fare, and got about $2,100 back in cash.

What's the lowest Y fare? Can't see it being a lot less than $900 TBH.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don't know what the lowest J fare is, but as I said they seem to have paid about $3,000 for the J fare, and got about $2,100 back in cash.

What's the lowest Y fare? Can't see it being a lot less than $900 TBH.

A search of the QF website reveals economy fares for $620 (aud) one way for the LAX-BNE sector based on round-trip travel. This is for departures Oct-Nov '15 (corresponding to the period this year when OP passengers were flying).

Qantas can easily determine the lowest fare paid on any given flight. That should be the benchmark in these situations.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Giving a table that doesnt turn up to a walk in (who have no expectation to definitely be given a seat) is completely different. It's more like offering two separate people reservations and both turning up at the same time expecting the table.

Also - interested given LAX has multiple flights each night, vs the 1x at DFW - that people think DFW has a lower chance of your travel being delayed/bumped etc? Surely there would be more chance of a spare J seat across 3 flights instead of 1.. and should one plane be taken out of service, theres a possibility of being put on one of the other flights? Why the dallas love? (apart from LAX being terrible haha). I'm looking at you princess fiona!

My liking for DFW is very much tongue in cheek I'm firmly of the view that in the unlikely event it happened to me I'll take the flight the following day.

FWIW I think there's a greater chance of me being run over by a car than being downgraded by QF

 

[drron]

I don't know what the lowest J fare is, but as I said they seem to have paid about $3,000 for the J fare, and got about $2,100 back in cash.

What's the lowest Y fare? Can't see it being a lot less than $900 TBH.

You have not understood the thread.They got back $1250 as the difference between the J purchased and the Y flown.
$700 was given to everyone affected including those who flew J the next day.The Ex Gratia payment was not compensation and was given as a voucher and points,not cash.

 

[Jack_OC]

A search of the QF website reveals economy fares for $620 (aud) one way for the LAX-BNE sector based on round-trip travel. This is for departures Oct-Nov '15 (corresponding to the period this year when OP passengers were flying).

Qantas can easily determine the lowest fare paid on any given flight. That should be the benchmark in these situations.

Those are sale fares though, aren't they? I thought saver fares start around the $1800 mark rtn. In any case, the point I'm making is this:

If QF had handled this properly and offered this compensation up front, and the first post read like this:

"They've been offered (a) J seats tomorrow, plus hotel, plus $700 or (b) the option of flying Y today, plus $2,100 in cash, plus 50,000 QFF pts plus a $500 voucher"

Would there have been a lot of outrage? I think not. But because QF handled it so badly, now they would need to offer something pretty dramatic to placate everyone.

 

[Jack_OC]

You have not understood the thread.They got back $1250 as the difference between the J purchased and the Y flown.
$700 was given to everyone affected including those who flew J the next day.The Ex Gratia payment was not compensation and was given as a voucher and points,not cash.

I understood that perfectly well, thanks - they were given a total of about $2,100 in cash compensation.

 

[drron]

I understood that perfectly well, thanks - they were given a total of about $2,100 in cash compensation.

So you just swapped the 2 and 1 did you?
The $700 was not part of their particular compensation but given to everyone affected.Besides even if you count it it is $1950 cash.
$1250 is the cash they were given as compensation for the involuntary downgrade.No more,no less.

 

[Jack_OC]

So you just swapped the 2 and 1 did you?

Nope, calculation shown quite clearly above - perhaps try reading my post before telling me I have misunderstood!

The $700 was not part of their particular compensation but given to everyone affected..

Of course it was part of their compensation. So what if it was given to everyone similarly affected? Why shouldn't it have been?

I know in QF semantics it was two different payments, but so what? All I've referred to is the total amount of cash they received.

 

[timster]

I may be on my own here, but I actually don't believe they should effectively be "charged" anything for the Y seat.

I don't see why an airline should be different to any other business in this regard. The pax purchased a premium seat. QF were unable to supply it, through their own failure. Any other business would have apologized profusely for their total stuffup, and said as a token of our concern we can provide you with an inferior product, which of course we don't expect you to pay for .. since you obviously did not buy it, did not choose it now, and do not want it.

After all, what would the Y seat "cost" QF. A few hundred dollars ? On the very rare occasions that this apparently happens.

Pax are over a barrel where they have no choice but to accept an outcome which is not fully explained to them (ie the amount of downgrade compensation they would eventually receive - legally this possibly constitutes "deception"), and have no real option to negotiate an acceptable settlement as they would in a normal business situation (knowing that the airport police could be called at anytime at the whim of the agents). This is not a position from which a business can then charge them the full price of even a discount Y fare and claim that said business has behaved fairly and ethically.

 

[moa999]

So you just swapped the 2 and 1 did you?
The $700 was not part of their particular compensation but given to everyone affected.Besides even if you count it it is $1950 cash.
$1250 is the cash they were given as compensation for the involuntary downgrade.No more,no less.

So those affected who chose to fly the next day - Received $700 for arriving 24 hrs later, but flying in the same J seat
For the OPs parent - Received $700 for being forced to sit in a much smaller Y seat, but arriving at the same time.

Each is affected in different ways, but in the case in this thread, the $700 is clearly part of the overall downgrade compensation...

Note I am somewhat surprised at the more recent PE to Y downgrade where their was no at airport compensation provided.

 

[timster]

Each is affected in different ways, but in the case in this thread, the $700 is clearly part of the overall downgrade compensation...

Not according to Qantas ...
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....rom-business-class-63686-131.html#post1162135
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....rom-business-class-63686-102.html#post1148680
(see link to refund table)
http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/qantas-frequent-flyer-program/downgraded-from-business-class-63686-126.html#post1161603

 

[Gibbels]

Hope it works out for you. Refundation is a must!!

 

[Princess Fiona]

Hope it works out for you. Refundation is a must!!

What's "Refundation" ?

 

[maninblack]

1. Pre-allocate your seats at the time of booking, although I believe EmilyP's parents had as they were on the manifest in J at one stage in those seats.

2. Fly inbound from another city eg Vegas ideally with the flight booked on the same pnr as the LAX/BNE flight or if separate pnrs, ensure that flight is on a OW carrier ie US or AA so that bags can be through checked LAS/xLAX/BNE & you'll get your boarding passes at that other city. Not sure what time checkin opens at LAX Airport locally - 1600 maybe???

3. Definitely do OLCI if you can but if not make sure if coming from another city you checkin earlier than 1600 LAX time so you've got a headstart over pax checking in locally. If you don't have internet access or aren't web savvy then a relative can do it back home provided they have the pnr & the passport info is complete.

The boarding passes can be saved as a pdf document and emailed to the pax which they can print out from their hotel or anywhere there is internet access. Worst case scenario they can ask the airport for a reprint but most people would probably rather have the boarding passes in hand prior to arriving at checkin.

Maybe, but can you point to any actual evidence that these procedures will lessen the likelihood of a downgrade? Nobody on this thread has been able to or has the actual knowledge to explain with certainty the criteria the airlines or in this case QF use in their selection of passengers for a downgrade on overbooked flights.

All this being said. How many F or J flights over the years between all of us posting here? (*) How many downgrades? (*)

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Maybe, but can you point to any actual evidence that these procedures will lessen the likelihood of a downgrade? Nobody on this thread has been able to or has the actual knowledge to explain with certainty the criteria the airlines or in this case QF use in their selection of passengers for a downgrade on overbooked flights.

No I can't point to any actual evidence as I think every instance would be different criteria, I was merely thinking of ways to minimize the chances of such an event happening.

 

[drron]

So those affected who chose to fly the next day - Received $700 for arriving 24 hrs later, but flying in the same J seat
For the OPs parent - Received $700 for being forced to sit in a much smaller Y seat, but arriving at the same time.

Each is affected in different ways, but in the case in this thread, the $700 is clearly part of the overall downgrade compensation...

Note I am somewhat surprised at the more recent PE to Y downgrade where their was no at airport compensation provided.

No the $700 is the compensation for not sitting in a J seat that day.If you sat in a J seat another day no further compensation.
The refund for sitting in a Y seat instead of J is only $1250.The passenger was not at fault and this refund is clearly unjust as far as the passenger is concerned.