Downgraded from Business Class.

[maninblack]

Just Say No

 

[Nizar]

Just Say No

You're missing the point. Saying no is assuming that I want to fly the next day.

I dont want to fly the next day. If I had wanted to fly the next day then I would have booked the next day initially when I made the booking.

What I was asking is what steps can we take to ensure that we are not put in a situation where you are asked that sort of question and have to make that sort of decision.

 

[opusman]

What I was asking is what steps can we take to ensure that we are not put in a situation where you are asked that sort of question and have to make that sort of decision.

There's apparently no way to ensure it, and never will be until standard airline practice changes to not involve selling the same seat twice.

Instead you can mitigate against it by a) having status and b) checking in early.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

There's apparently no way to ensure it, and never will be until standard airline practice changes to not involve selling the same seat twice.

This will never happen in our lifetime. All major airlines would collapse overnight.

This is not justifying the practice, however it does make good business sense when many fares are flexible and many people simply don't turn up.

What they do *when* it happens is what needs to improve.

 

[opusman]

Imagine if restaurants overbooked their tables. Turn up at Vue de Monde only to be offered a table the following night or dinner at McDonalds just down the street. How long would they get away with it? It's amazing that airlines do.

 

[timster]

You're missing the point. Saying no is assuming that I want to fly the next day.

Actually it may take someone willing to say no - "I'm not accepting a downgraded BP (for 1/3 compensation) .. and I'm not accepting a ticket for tomorrow's flight .... just give me what I paid for or a full refund" - ie push the "system" to breaking point, for something "good" to happen.

QF presumably don't want someone totally stranded at LAX, or to hand them over to the local police for making a fuss. Both would be PR disasters that would expose the "system" for what it is - flawed and totally unethical. But it would be a risky strategy on any passenger's part.

 

[BD1959]

There's apparently no way to ensure it, and never will be until standard airline practice changes to not involve selling the same seat twice.

Instead you can mitigate against it by a) having status and b) checking in early.

EmilyP's parents had status and checked-in early...

Regards,

BD

 

[mannej]

Imagine if restaurants overbooked their tables. Turn up at Vue de Monde only to be offered a table the following night or dinner at McDonalds just down the street. How long would they get away with it? It's amazing that airlines do.

My local GP books a number of patients in at the same time. Not quite the same but it suggests overbooking occurs in other industries not just the airline.

Total PITA waiting but you know the deal.

 

[opusman]

EmilyP's parents had status and checked-in early...

They checked in at the airport, not 24 hours before when check-in opened...

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Imagine if restaurants overbooked their tables. Turn up at Vue de Monde only to be offered a table the following night or dinner at McDonalds just down the street. How long would they get away with it? It's amazing that airlines do.

I am willing to bet they overbook too. Smaller and fancier restaurants take a deposit in some cases to sure up their bookings, but the rest overbook then give away the booked tables that don't turn up to walk ins, or phone their waiting lists.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Actually it may take someone willing to say no - "I'm not accepting a downgraded BP (for 1/3 compensation) .. and I'm not accepting a ticket for tomorrow's flight .... just give me what I paid for or a full refund" - ie push the "system" to breaking point, for something "good" to happen.

QF presumably don't want someone totally stranded at LAX, or to hand them over to the local police for making a fuss. Both would be PR disasters that would expose the "system" for what it is - flawed and totally unethical. But it would be a risky strategy on any passenger's part.

the 'full refund' bit is actually provided for in QF's terms and conditions. If you choose not to fly, the entire fare for the affected flight will be refunded:

If there are insufficient seats in the class in which you booked, for example due to a change of aircraft, we will offer you the option to travel in a lower class or on the next available flight to your destination in the same class. If we cannot offer you suitable alternative arrangements, we will fully refund the fare for your affected flight.

Re standing your ground? I have no doubt airport staff in the USA would (and do) call police at the drop of a hat.

 

[michaele]

I am willing to bet they overbook too. Smaller and fancier restaurants take a deposit in some cases to sure up their bookings, but the rest overbook then give away the booked tables that don't turn up to walk ins, or phone their waiting lists.

Giving a table that doesnt turn up to a walk in (who have no expectation to definitely be given a seat) is completely different. It's more like offering two separate people reservations and both turning up at the same time expecting the table.

Also - interested given LAX has multiple flights each night, vs the 1x at DFW - that people think DFW has a lower chance of your travel being delayed/bumped etc? Surely there would be more chance of a spare J seat across 3 flights instead of 1.. and should one plane be taken out of service, theres a possibility of being put on one of the other flights? Why the dallas love? (apart from LAX being terrible haha). I'm looking at you princess fiona!

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Giving a table that doesnt turn up to a walk in (who have no expectation to definitely be given a seat) is completely different. It's more like offering two separate people reservations and both turning up at the same time expecting the table.

Also - interested given LAX has multiple flights each night, vs the 1x at DFW - that people think DFW has a lower chance of your travel being delayed/bumped etc? Surely there would be more chance of a spare J seat across 3 flights instead of 1.. and should one plane be taken out of service, theres a possibility of being put on one of the other flights? Why the dallas love? (apart from LAX being terrible haha). I'm looking at you princess fiona!

Im guessing you've never turned up to a booked restaurant and been asked to wait? They expect you to stay for X hours, then when you're still there after Y hours they have the same problem. Both parties booked and expected the same table.

 

[timster]

Re standing your ground? I have no doubt airport staff in the USA would (and do) call police at the drop of a hat.

That's what I meant by it being a risky strategy for the passenger. One could simply refuse QF's unreasonable "offers" and walk away though. No need to provoke anything at LAX.

But equally so it would be a risky strategy for QF. Having a passenger possibly thrown in jail after being faced with an unreasonable set of choices by QF would pale into insignificance against an agent turning their back and walking away from EmilyP's parents.

But I'm not volunteering to test the theory. Although it does prompt one to think what one would do in EmilyP's parents' situation ? Accept the downgrade as they did ? I don't know.

 

[BD1959]

They checked in at the airport, not 24 hours before when check-in opened...

True, but they were there when check-in opened...highly unlikely to be last J to check-in.

They were also both on the J manifest...so unlikely to have been bumped prior to Airport check-in opening.

Status and early check-in appears to have not helped in this instance.

Regards,

BD

 

[wandering_fred]

And remember the "full refund" is based on deducting the one way fare which has already been used (and likely calculated at full cabin fare F/J/W/Y) from the amount paid. It will be very unlikely that it is half of the original payment.

In the end this is why the European authorities arrived at the "penalties" imposed on the carriers for not fulfilling the ENTIRE contract with the passengers on the scheduled day and in the paid for cabin.

Perhaps it is time to have Mr. Xenophon's opinion as well as the USA's DOT.

Thank goodness PER has more reasonable access transPacific via HKG than does the eastern coast of Australia.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[Jack_OC]

So I came to this late and just read the entire thread today! Firstly, with parents who are getting on a bit, and who travel in paid J when they come to visit us in Aus, I can really empathise. I know that the same situation would be extremely upsetting for my folks (and by extension, for me).

I have to say though, I'm surprised that people think the compensation ultimately (if belatedly) provided was inadequate. I suppose it's a great example of the importance of getting customer service responses right as soon as an incident occurs. Once the customers get really upset, there is often no way of retrieving the situation, and it looks like that's what's happened here.

Just to explain why I think the compensation was fair: the affected flight constituted about 40% of the flying time on the itinerary, and the fare for the whole lot ticket was $7,500. As such I'd say it's reasonable to put a price of $3,000 on the fare paid for the affected flight. If I understand correctly, the cash compensation provided was $USD700 + AUD$1,250 = about AUD$2,100, or 70% of the fare paid. That in itself would probably have been seen as reasonable if it had been offered up front. Add to that a $500 voucher and 50,000 points (worth at least another $500), and the total value of the compensation is more than the cost of the fare paid for this flight.

I realise these people are now so irate with QF that they don't plan to use the voucher or points. I really hope they reconsider though, as if they don't use them, the only winner is Qantas.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

What do people think are the main things we can do to avoid (or at least reduce the chance of) a downgrade happening when coming home from the US ?

I can think of three that we've come across during these discussions.

1. Avoid LAX.
2. Avoid leaving on a Friday.
3. Always do Online check-in

Anymore that I've missed ?

1. Pre-allocate your seats at the time of booking, although I believe EmilyP's parents had as they were on the manifest in J at one stage in those seats.

2. Fly inbound from another city eg Vegas ideally with the flight booked on the same pnr as the LAX/BNE flight or if separate pnrs, ensure that flight is on a OW carrier ie US or AA so that bags can be through checked LAS/xLAX/BNE & you'll get your boarding passes at that other city. Not sure what time checkin opens at LAX Airport locally - 1600 maybe???

3. Definitely do OLCI if you can but if not make sure if coming from another city you checkin earlier than 1600 LAX time so you've got a headstart over pax checking in locally. If you don't have internet access or aren't web savvy then a relative can do it back home provided they have the pnr & the passport info is complete.

The boarding passes can be saved as a pdf document and emailed to the pax which they can print out from their hotel or anywhere there is internet access. Worst case scenario they can ask the airport for a reprint but most people would probably rather have the boarding passes in hand prior to arriving at checkin.

And remember the "full refund" is based on deducting the one way fare which has already been used (and likely calculated at full cabin fare F/J/W/Y) from the amount paid. It will be very unlikely that it is half of the original payment.

You'd hope that at the very least that airlines calculate the 'one way' fare as half the return airfare as opposed to a full one way fare as the pax didn't travel on a one way ticket as it was a round trip journey.

 

[love_the_life]

If there are insufficient seats in the class in which you booked, for example due to a change of aircraft, we will offer you the option to travel in a lower class or on the next available flight to your destination in the same class. If we cannot offer you suitable alternative arrangements, we will fully refund the fare for your affected flight.



But whose definition of "suitable alternative arrangements" should be considered - QF's or the passenger's? My money is on QF saying they offered a suitable alternative so stiff!

 

[timster]

So I came to this late and just read the entire thread today! Firstly, with parents who are getting on a bit, and who travel in paid J when they come to visit us in Aus, I can really empathise. I know that the same situation would be extremely upsetting for my folks (and by extension, for me).

I have to say though, I'm surprised that people think the compensation ultimately (if belatedly) provided was inadequate.

Going over old ground here ...
The $700 was not part of the downgrade fare refund. It was described at LAX as an inconvenience payment and was also given to those who chose to fly J the next day - and god knows EmilyP's parents suffered inconvenience and insult !
As for the points offer, I would regard that not only as worthless, but as a total insult - as it carries with it the expectation that one will fly with QF again after being treated so appallingly. It falls into the category of "You can't be serious".
The $500 voucher would I guess balance the taxes that one would have to pay on a 50,000-points flight, giving money back to QF !!! - so again, an insult and essentially worthless. And of course the points and voucher cost QF nowhere near their face value.

If they were sincere QF would have provided the cash equivalent and made up the difference to a reasonable fare difference ... for an inferior fare that EmilyP's parents did not choose to buy and did not want.