Email from QFF [FF Account suspended]

[TomVexille]

when you have the choice of travelling on the same aircraft and you pay more to help QANTAS with your loyalty even if you have the same advantages on buying the ticket from another airline IT IS PAYING MORE

Well if the advantages are exactly the same, paying more is just silly

 

[Quickstatus]

Some people think they can get away with it until they get caught.
The only way to transfer points is to nominate the relationship between transferor and transferee from the menu selection. So when you buy points and then by selecting a false relationship you are telling porkies. Sure some get away with it but some don't and here we are.

Sorry to say but a mea culpa is in order.

I have to say the above is incorrect. You cant receive points and select a relationship in the website. You can only select a relationship when transferring points out

 

[Pushka]

Personal attacks such as this aren’t really necessary

I wish you were haunting the cricket thread a few weeks ago.....

 

[GoldCanyon340]

I wish you were haunting the cricket thread a few weeks ago.....

... or on tour in South Africa a few months ago

 

[JohnK]

An unfortunate situation. As a Platinum I would never take such a risk.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Agree with JohnK.
I am not QF WP but have been QF SG, now at QF PS, been with them for 21 years now, and have not ever bought points outside QF.
I just don't get it why people do it, why risk their membership, why help sellers profiteer.
When they then get discovered, they cry "blue murder"/woe is me, etc, etc, etc.
If the OP had not bought those shares, he would not be in such a position as he is now in.
200,000 QF points is a lot of points, a lot of worth of flying who gain their points the legit way.
Over 21 years, flying with QF, (Y and J classes) and EK, (J and F classes to try them out), (the QF EK partnership), I would probably have spent thousands with QF and EK, and would probably have gotten close to that number, but the legit way.

 

[RoMambai]

I get the opprobrium here (not the sanctimony) but for those who are railing about buying points that are then used to 'reduce' the opportunities of others to make redemptions, I trust they realise that anyone can buy points with QF now and do exactly that.

From a purely market perspective, I can see little difference between buying points directly from QF (albeit at a higher price) or buying off Buggerlugz on OzB for 1.2 cents per point.

When I was in BA several years back, the official exchange rate for the peso was much lower than what was available on the street. Naturally I sought the higher rate and slept soundly at night. I see parallels in that experience with the OP's pickle.

Yes I could have been a straighty 180 but it sometimes pays to bend the rules, particularly when the line between right and wrong is indistinguishable.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I get the opprobrium here (not the sanctimony) but for those who are railing about buying points that are then used to 'reduce' the opportunities of others to make redemptions, I trust they realise that anyone can buy points with QF now and do exactly that.

From a purely market perspective, I can see little difference between buying points directly from QF (albeit at a higher price) or buying off Buggerlugz on OzB for 1.2 cents per point.

QF business class MEL-HKG rtn (120K points) would be $2983 buying direct through QF compared to $1440 through brokers. I can see people taking award seats at the latter price, but not at the former.

 

[33kft]

From a purely market perspective, I can see little difference between buying points directly from QF (albeit at a higher price) or buying off Buggerlugz on OzB for 1.2 cents per point.

As a thought experiment maybe, but let's be honest here, buying from QFF has several key differences to buying from individuals:

• It is priced such that you cannot buy close to the effective award rate for award partners. It is sold by QFF to these partners at a lower rate as a loyalty tool and not as a currency. The moment you can buy closer to the loyalty rate than the retail rate, it loses value as a loyalty tool and just becomes a type of cut-price coupon.
• QFF enforces controls (max 150K per year, max 4 txns per year). They have had more strict conditions in the past but have relaxed those, for what reason I do not know. But as the absolute arbiters of the program, they could also re-introduce them if they felt it necessary.
  
• And finally, QFF makes this the only legal means to buy points. Maybe for profiteering, but equally as a mechanism for those who want to cover a shortfall to redeem collected points for an award. They either have to fly/transact more, or pay a premium to dilute the value of their awards.

So yes if you want to look at it as a market instrument, convert it however you see fit and make use of arbitrage opportunities. But since it isn't, and it's an award program governed by T&Cs which specify the only approved redemption mechanisms, you can go ahead and break those rules at your peril, and I would not blame the airline for making an example of those they catch to stamp out that sort of thinking.

If we don't like the terms of the program, other than asking Qantas to amend them, our only other recourse is to not participate. It doesn't give us license to act contrary to the terms.

 

[RoMambai]

I agree with you 33kft. I just have issues with a monopolist that determines the quantity of supply and of redemptions and also acts as the regulator. I concede QF has a right to do so but if they condone points sales in one case they ought to do it all cases.

Perhaps my reflexive anti-monopoly stance is clouding my perspective. Food for thought if nothing else.

 

[Kerrodt]

As a thought experiment maybe, but let's be honest here, buying from QFF has several key differences to buying from individuals:

• <snip>....
• .....<snip>
• And finally, QFF makes this the only legal means. Maybe for profiteering, but equally as a mechanism for those who want to redeem collected points for an award. They either have to fly/transact more, or pay a premium to dilute the value of their awards......

A far more important point I believe with the way in which QFF manages their points is that if they either (a) turned a blind eye to all non compliant buy/sell/transfer transactions or (b) change the rules to allow open slather, then a QFF point would become seen as a currency and would need to be treated as such in a more regulated manner as it would otherwise become a money launderers paradise and a speculators haven and all of the pricing power would be taken away from QFF and handed to the “market”.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Some would see it as no different, but I can see it from QF's point of view.
"""You are buying points, ie getting a benefit from points obtained outside of QF's purview, out of QF's control, and none of the $ paid, if it was exchanged directly goes to QF"", granted the original obtainer of those points would have flown QF or got their points by QFmall or QF hotels, or QF chauffeur, or what so ever...
Probably some would see it as not illegal, and I am not a lawyer, so can't say for sure, but if something prevents me directly earning from it, (if I was the business) and that there is a benefit gained, I would also be not too pleased.
Airlines can take action, ultimately shutting down accounts of culprits, but others, we sue, don't we?
Don't know what the outcome of the OP will be, though.
Would "oh, I didn't know" really be a good excuse?
Like not knowing that the buying and selling of lounge passes, *until lately when it became all electronic, meaning QF has/have a trail*... is frowned upon of course.

 

[Pushka]

I agree with you 33kft. I just have issues with a monopolist that determines the quantity of supply and of redemptions and also acts as the regulator. I concede QF has a right to do so but if they condone points sales in one case they ought to do it all cases.

Perhaps my reflexive anti-monopoly stance is clouding my perspective. Food for thought if nothing else.

Because it’s their Business and we aren’t forced to use them? It isn’t a monopoly at all.

 

[33kft]

I think concerns about QFF points becoming an unregulated currency are a bit overblown, it's not that I think that it isn't a factor, nobody would want to become the lucky administrator of an accidental surrogate currency overnight, but I would also say:

• It wouldn't be a money launderer's dream. QFF records the transactions through the website including who sent to who and the identity of senders and recipients with quite a bit of detail and even (possibly) travel history attached.
  
• The value of QFF points today are based on redemption value. Any change by QFF will immediately debase the currency value. It does not have any pegging or inflationary mechanisms. It is not a particularly good store of value.
• Even if in this conceptual situation QFF allowed open transfers without restriction, the ultimate end benefactor has to convert their points to either expensive toasters or flights. There is no direct cash out option. There are expensive gift cards but the aim of an effective money launderer is not to lose most of the money through transfer costs.
• Without doubt anyone who were implementing such a system would be bright enough to cover the additional costs of provisioning infrastructure capable of the additional transaction rates that this would result in through a transfer fee.

I don't see all of that Bitcoin money moving to QFF points anytime soon. Of course nobody would chance it in the first place.

 

[Scott K]

I think concerns about QFF points becoming an unregulated currency are a bit overblown, it's not that I think that it isn't a factor, nobody would want to become the lucky administrator of an accidental surrogate currency overnight, but I would also say:

• It wouldn't be a money launderer's dream. QFF records the transactions through the website including who sent to who and the identity of senders and recipients with quite a bit of detail and even (possibly) travel history attached.
  
• The value of QFF points today are based on redemption value. Any change by QFF will immediately debase the currency value. It does not have any pegging or inflationary mechanisms. It is not a particularly good store of value.
• Even if in this conceptual situation QFF allowed open transfers without restriction, the ultimate end benefactor has to convert their points to either expensive toasters or flights. There is no direct cash out option. There are expensive gift cards but the aim of an effective money launderer is not to lose most of the money through transfer costs.
• Without doubt anyone who were implementing such a system would be bright enough to cover the additional costs of provisioning infrastructure capable of the additional transaction rates that this would result in through a transfer fee.

I don't see all of that Bitcoin money moving to QFF points anytime soon. Of course nobody would chance it in the first place.

I get what you are saying, but while these are discouraging measures they aren't factors that would totally dis-allow FF points to be used in such a way. While the recording of transactions/points is indeed correct, Qantas is unlikely to ever want to be in a position where they have to face courts ordering information on these records. Qantas wouldn't have an issue going through them for large criminal operations, however small criminal activities would thrive on this, as the exchange figures are likely to be too small to be immediately detectable, and thus would create a situation where points are open to micro transactions knowing that the courts are unlikely to pursue every small transaction with an injunction. In short, for the guys moving millions of dollars wouldn't ever be worth it, but it has potential to be used in person to person trades.

From Qantas's point of view, discouraging FF points from ever becoming a surrogate currency, and the greatly increased administrative costs there-in would be in their best interests.

 

[drron]

The thing I dislike about buying and selling points are the dealers in those points.They would have to know that it is against the QFF T&Cs.They must also know that those who buy and sell those points through them are risking their QFF accounts.
On Ozbargain it seems that you can sell your points to them at 1 cent per point and looking at the ads then onsell them for 1.1-1.5 cents.So a 10-15% profit for basically no exertion.They also almost certainly have back up accounts to use if 1 is closed down.If smart they again almost certainly don't put too many points into any individual account lessening the chance of being picked up and losses if the account is closed.

But as Pushka has said there are a lot more loyalty schemes out there and IMHO QFF is not amongst the best.Many legally allow you to buy points.But then comes the problem.For example Life miles was very popular on AFF.Result awards in and out of Australia became much harder to get and other Alliance partners start rationing awards to Life Miles.
So sorry I don't have sympathy for those flouting the T&Cs of QFF.I suspect many know that buying and selling is against the T&Cs and in many cases- Methinks they protest too much.

 

[RoMambai]

I think concerns about QFF points becoming an unregulated currency are a bit overblown

I tend to agree. Lifting the prohibition, I contend, wouldn't lead to a free for all. Most people are inclined not to participate. But for the small minority that do, legalising p2p sales would legitimise an already soaring practice. The only folk who would grumble are likely to be the NIMBYs who are worried about how it may affect them (which I think would be negligible) and who seemingly prefer the non-cogniscenti to spend their points on toasters. I'd prefer that they get 1.2 cents back per point than an iPhone at 4 times its value.

 

[cambriamarsh]

I get the opprobrium here (not the sanctimony) but for those who are railing about buying points that are then used to 'reduce' the opportunities of others to make redemptions, I trust they realise that anyone can buy points with QF now and do exactly that.

From a purely market perspective, I can see little difference between buying points directly from QF (albeit at a higher price) or buying off Buggerlugz on OzB for 1.2 cents per point.

When I was in BA several years back, the official exchange rate for the peso was much lower than what was available on the street. Naturally I sought the higher rate and slept soundly at night. I see parallels in that experience with the OP's pickle.

Yes I could have been a straighty 180 but it sometimes pays to bend the rules, particularly when the line between right and wrong is indistinguishable.

In some parts of the world buying FX on the black market could well mean you won’t have to worry about accommodation for a while. Did that not apply in BA?

 

[cambriamarsh]

QF business class MEL-HKG rtn (120K points) would be $2983 buying direct through QF compared to $1440 through brokers. I can see people taking award seats at the latter price, but not at the former.

Still a lot less than retail tho

 

[33kft]

Still a lot less than retail tho

Doesn't include the taxes nor the availability issues you'd quickly run into when you go to redeem them