"Fees" for Free Tickets-I think FRAUD

[JohnK]

If that's per PAX, and SYD-AKL-CHC is a transit then QF is a 44% more expensive in points, but 8% less in T/L/C's.

It currently would cost 36,000 QFF points & AUD246 using QFF. (~SGD290, SGD312 is about AUD265).

You are right it is for only one PAX and SYD-AKL-CHC is only a transit as he could not get the morning direct flight SYD-CHC.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

A friend has some expiring Kris Flyer miles, not enough for long haul trip, so we have decided to go to the land of long white cloud for a week.

Finalised booking today with KrisFlyer and booked Air NZ flights SYD-AKL-CHC//AKL-SYD for late January, early February next year. It cost 25,000 KrisFlyer points and a donation of S$312 to SQ. Is this normal practice?

And to think that QF is highly criticised.

Trans-tasman taxes are exhorbitant. I have a recently purchased longhaul ticket on SQ (includes 5 longhaul flights) that had less than that in "taxes".

 

[vt01]

I remember reading an article in one of the newspapers a number of years ago where an air industry analyst talked about the growing exposure that airlines had because of the number of outstanding FF points in the industry. This had particularly ballooned since the airlines had discovered how good it was to sell points to hotels and credit card providers plus others..

I believe what we are seeing with fuel fines is just another way the airlines are dealing with their liability. Some, such as QF, much worse than others. Not that I agree with this strategy at all!
We all know QF have been reducing their liability for QF points over time(Not precisely in the order I have following):
The change from km travelled to extra points for each stopover (the old around Aus in Business class for 37500km points - I was lucky enough that Mrs VT and myself did one of these. It now cost 72000 miles for a Syd-Per return).
Points for point to point return trips
Increased points for trips
Points based on one way travel.
Earning and burning from km to miles
Increase point requirements for awards

It's a pretty simple equation, separate out fuel as a cost of a seat and then change the rules of FF schemes so that, like taxes, fuel surcharges are not included as part of an award ticket.
We've all read the fine print of almost every program we join. The following from the introduction to the FF scheme:

1.2 These Terms and Conditions are effective as at the date of publication (2 May 2006) and may be amended from time to time. Members should refer to this website for the current Terms and Conditions and applicable fees for Qantas Frequent Flyer.

So as much as we all complain, QF could devalue our points in half if they really wanted and there's nothing much we can do about it..

IMHO QF should have left the expiry on points. Use them within a set period of time or lose them. At least that may have kept pressure off other ways of dealing with the liability.

It was actually the last increase in fuel fines that was the last straw that caused me to jump ship to AA (and of course lots of good reasoning and encouragement from NM, Dave Noble et al)..

I may never reach oneworld emerald again but for the small advantages between Sapphire and emerald, I'm not too worried.. Especially as the baggage rules are all changing. I used this feature qute a bit on family travel

I will also try and buy my future flights through AA where ever possible so that the revenue does not go to QF..

And I will just continue to use my QF FF points for upgrades which do not attract the fuel fine..

QF are really just screwing over their loyal travellers.. When will they learn that loyalty is the hardest thing to earn yet so easy to lose and even harder to get back!

My 2 FF points worth.. Hang on, that's only worth 0.75 now!

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

IMHO QF should have left the expiry on points. Use them within a set period of time or lose them. At least that may have kept pressure off other ways of dealing with the liability.

Maybe. But many FFPs do have point expiry and still fuel fines. Eg Airpoints, Kris Flyer.

 

[vt01]

Maybe. But many FFPs do have point expiry and still fuel fines. Eg Airpoints, Kris Flyer.

Thanks for the warning.. I'm never going to join those ones....

 

[Yada Yada]

I believe what we are seeing with fuel fines is just another way the airlines are dealing with their liability. Some, such as QF, much worse than others.

<...snip...>

QF are really just screwing over their loyal travellers.. When will they learn that loyalty is the hardest thing to earn yet so easy to lose and even harder to get back!

I tend to agree. I've said it before but it's worth repeating: the fuel fines have gutted the QFF program. If you have to pay to get a loyalty reward then it is no longer a loyalty reward.

I'm really struggling to find a good reason to fly with Qantas domestically. With Virgin Blue, they now have lounges at the three airports I regularly use, I can guarantee a good seat allocation either by paying a small additional fee or a slightly higher fare, and I can check-in online to avoid the queues.

Qantas lounges are often too crowded, I can't check-in online, and when flying in economy I cannot guarantee a decent seat allocation and am yet to actually get one. I've never ever received an operational upgrade and almost never get to upgrade using points or use my remaining UC's because I am usually flying at peak times and there is no availability. At non-peak times the J cabin is often full of QF staff so upgrade availability is always scarce.

QF certainly are not doing anything to retain me as a customer.

 

[NM]

1.2 These Terms and Conditions are effective as at the date of publication (2 May 2006) and may be amended from time to time. Members should refer to this website for the current Terms and Conditions and applicable fees for Qantas Frequent Flyer.

The last major change to the QF FF program (read: points devaluation) was 25th May 2005. In most cases of major program changes, QF has provided 6 months notice before the change takes affect. So of they continue to work on a 2-year cycle for major program "enhancements", we should be prepared to be told of forthcoming enhancements before the end of this year .

 

[JohnK]

I will also try and buy my future flights through AA where ever possible so that the revenue does not go to QF..

And I will just continue to use my QF FF points for upgrades which do not attract the fuel fine..

QF are really just screwing over their loyal travellers.. When will they learn that loyalty is the hardest thing to earn yet so easy to lose and even harder to get back!

It may be more attractive joining the AA FF program, but you are still flying QF and you are still giving QF revenue, although not at the price QF charges. AA buys seats from QF at a wholesale price and then sells them for whatever price they want.

 

[vt01]

It may be more attractive joining the AA FF program, but you are still flying QF and you are still giving QF revenue, although not at the price QF charges. AA buys seats from QF at a wholesale price and then sells them for whatever price they want.

Very true. But at least they won't be getting the same revenue (I hope).

The other problem is that the majority of my travel is business and of course QF is the preferred airline..Someone else has already said it.. Until we get some decent competition in Aus then things aren't going to improve. I haven't flown on a *A airline for many years and probably won't in the future.. So Oneworld it is..

The last major change to the QF FF program (read: points devaluation) was 25th May 2005. In most cases of major program changes, QF has provided 6 months notice before the change takes affect. So of they continue to work on a 2-year cycle for major program "enhancements", we should be prepared to be told of forthcoming enhancements before the end of this year .

And I definitely agree here.. That's why I'm going to use them or lose (well, have them devalued) them.. And put all future ones in pts in AA!

 

[Yada Yada]

Until we get some decent competition in Aus then things aren't going to improve.

If you are flying in economy then the competition already exists in Virgin Blue. If you are flying business class then I agree, there is no competition. Pity more people did not support OzJet.

 

[turtlemichael]

The last major change to the QF FF program (read: points devaluation) was 25th May 2005. In most cases of major program changes, QF has provided 6 months notice before the change takes affect. So of they continue to work on a 2-year cycle for major program "enhancements", we should be prepared to be told of forthcoming enhancements before the end of this year .

Your statement really worries me as I fear it's accurate. Perhaps the saving graces may be that there is a little more effective competition around than there was two years ago (DJ FF scheme and lounges), when the May 25th massacre was being planned, and QF's financial position is a lot less secure now? I live in hope that those things may lessen the impact of the next "enhancements".

For me, the major effect of May 25th is that I have thought a bit more about what I do. I now fly DJ as its generally friendly, efficient and cheaper, I am starting a DONE4 in a couple of days with just enough SC's to maintain WP status for another year, I'm spending points rather than accruing them relentlessly, and I figure that as I generally fly J internationally I'll get the benefits of lounges etc with which ever airline I fly and give my money to. So the downgrading of the scheme last year has cost QF a share of my business and it will cost it more as time goes on. The way QF has treated me (fuel fines on award tickets, devalued award points, award availability) has made me a less loyal customer. Oops, sorry this is way OT.

 

[NM]

Your statement really worries me as I fear it's accurate. Perhaps the saving graces may be that there is a little more effective competition around than there was two years ago (DJ FF scheme and lounges), when the May 25th massacre was being planned, and QF's financial position is a lot less secure now? I live in hope that those things may lessen the impact of the next "enhancements".

Please don't read too much into my comments around timing. I have no inside knowledge and its all just speculation based on historic cycles.

My concern is that with the huge number of points earned through credit cards, Qantas is going to be forced to make some value adjustments to some of its awards. The cost of earning QF FF points via credit cards in Australia is somewhat less than the cost for other airline's miles in other countries. For example, there are very few USA-based credit cards that will earn 1.5 miles/$ spent, and that is US$ not A$. So 1 mile/US$ is about twice the cost compared with 1.5 points/A$.

And of course there is huge competition in the QF-earning credit card space in Australia. In my mind, the situation has gotton a little out of control. But QF likes it because they make good money from selling the points to the banks/providers. At some stage they are going to have to modify the program to cater for an environment where more points are earned from credit card spending than from flying. I think over time its going to move more and more to a Frequent Spender program than a Frequent Flyer program.

At least with the last round of major changes they made it earier to reach and maintain status when flying on premium fares, and they also made the benefits more available for people to reach elite status within the program (which can only be achieved from flying). So for me, that was an enhancement (status-based waitlist for upgrade, more award seats available for Gold/Plat members etc).

But where to from here as the balance of available points from credit card spending continues to balloon?

 

[Mal]

Please don't read too much into my comments around timing. I have no inside knowledge and its all just speculation based on historic cycles.

My concern is that with the huge number of points earned through credit cards, Qantas is going to be forced to make some value adjustments to some of its awards.

I can only agree with this. The writing is on the wall...

 

[ozstamps]

I booked yesterday 2 x award ticketds on KLM from AMS-Libya. Non stop flight - only a few hours each way.

"Taxes" for this "free' tickets were over 300 EUROS. (=$A515) :evil:

 

[NM]

I booked yesterday 2 x award ticketds on KLM from AMS-Libya. Non stop flight - only a few hours each way.

"Taxes" for this "free' tickets were over 300 EUROS. (=$A515) :evil:

Ouch! What would a paid fare have cost?

 

[ozstamps]

Ouch! What would a paid fare have cost?

I honestly do not know, but it is only a SYD-Darwin type distance, so no big deal fare wise I'd have guessed.

KLM had a half price award sale on for 50% of normal points (only 15,000 RT) so I booked 2 tickets and paid the $A515 in "taxes" on the 'free' tickets! Hope Libya is worth it.

Number of Miles required

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Mr. GLEN xx_xx_xx_x[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Number of Miles required for your trip : [B][B][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=red][COLOR=red]15 000 (Miles)[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/B][/B][/SIZE][/FONT]
 
 
[B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][B]Taxes detail[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
 

[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Total : [B][B]151.65 EUR[/B][/B][/SIZE][/FONT]

[/RIGHT]

 
 
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Award tickets are subject to airport and security charges as well as fuel surcharges. Payment is due on issuance of the award ticket.[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
 
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Amount of ticket -  0 EUR[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Taxes -  + 151.65 EUR[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Passenger(s) - x 1 Adult[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Total including taxes - [B]151.65 EUR[/B][/SIZE][/FONT]
 
 

[RIGHT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][URL="http://javascript<b></b>:popupBareme();"][COLOR=#0000ff]Award ticket conditions [/COLOR][/URL][/SIZE][/FONT]

[/RIGHT]

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Are you getting an ex-TIP F to SYD also?

 

[ozstamps]

Rob that did not even occur to me to be honest. The attraction of a half price "freebie" flight (coff) to a place I had never been was the only attraction really. The other half price offer was Entebbe Uganda, and nearly went for that, but flight times (days) did not fit.

We go on to South America from Europe for a few days after Libya, and come back home via Korea (and the DMZ!) so not sure how the lowball cheapies will ever assist us, as flights back home from Tripoli are already booked.

But I am sure you or Dave will have an angle I am missing.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

I thought you'd already been to the DMZ? Sounds like you're on a RTW of some sort?

 

[AnonymousCoward]

It is a shame that this is less likely, because I personally found this service the best benefit of being platinum (and 2500 pts is a small price to pay for much more flexibility). Over the last few years, I have used this for at least one sector on every reward booking I've made, and two of those were at very short notice so it & the extra 50% points is why I find that platinum is really worthwhile over gold.

I'm going to agree with Dajop here. Calling the FF desk has allowed me to get business class award seats LAX->SYD when nothing was showing up via the website. I was never able to do this when I was a no-status (Bronze/Silver) FF. Since I've been a Plat, I've had no problems at all. The number of requests I've put in may not statistically significant, but I'm inclined to think that Plats do get some leeway. The extra 100% FF points are also handy. I usually don't fly AA in the US anyway (since corporate policy is economy-only, and economy on AA means drinks only), so I think for some of us, AA may not always be such a clear-cut winner.