Finally reached Lifetime Gold... what next?

[tyrolean]

I have seen 3000 mentioned here for number of WP1's. These WP1's will be LTG or based on someone starting afresh will hit LTG in under four years.* The consistent WP+PG needs under six years, and the consistent "phew, made it" WP needs just over eleven. We have already had a few years at this game too. I agree some will die or drop off, but there will be thousands of LTG. I made LTG and had only two years where I passed 2400SC's. :shock:

When the marketing execs come up with their "lifetime" strategies I'm not sure they really think about what happens afterwards....it is all so far away and anyway "very few people hit LTG"!!!!

*Obviously travel might vary and WP1's may not consistently maintain their level.

How many people will keep that pace over many years? Some get a new job, move, have different projects.

Yes I like flying, but I like to be at home as well!
I reached LTS as a minimum tier. I aim to go for LTG. I will have 9400 SC this year and probably will requalify for PLAT next year. I really do not know what will be then.

 

[Pleb Status]

It will only be a matter of time before the bar for LTG rises. On QF, it only takes 10 years at WP earn to get LTG (10*1400=14000 SC). On AA, it take 20 years at EXP earn to get the equivalent status (20*100,000=2,000,000 miles).

The problem now is every year, more and more customers will earn LTG. This will be an ever expanding liability to QF. My guess would be around 5000 LTG at the moment with say 500 of those at 28000SC or higher (the proposed LTP level).

What would be interesting to know is how many LTG actually use the benefit. Since earning LTG, I have not dropped below WP. Therefore, it has cost nothing to give me LTG. This may be similar for others and therefore keeps the cost of LTG down to an acceptable level at this stage.

I think the chances of LTP is very limited. What would be good is to give a discount on the SC required to earn WP to say 900SC/pa at 21000LTSC and 600SC/pa at 28000LTSC. This would reward those who still fly on QF on a regular basis.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

If the lounges are overcrowded - time to expand them, simple. (if lounge overcrowding is the real issue).

If not - what is the real issue?

Why should any of us care how many others have status?

I only care about receiving the benefits due to me.

You should care. Because when there are too many people with status, and who aren't generating enough profit for QF, then benefits get "enhanced".

I'm sure that QF would love to do away with lifetime status. It's the type of thing that brings in revenue at the front-end, but has a (potentially) never ending liability (whether that be real, or something that they have to keep on their books) - just like defined benefit contribution pensions (and we've all seen what's happened to those).

And if you don't care about the overall picture - just your benefits, consider this: a bunch of LTP all vying for award seats and upgrade opportunites. Those people would be competing with people who are actual WP due to currently earned status. I'm pretty sure the latter wouldn't be too impressed by being squeezed by a bunch of "former" WPs, and I'm pretty sure I know which group QF would prefer to look after. Just like I'm not happy when some ex-pollie and his/her entourage get on a plane and take up a bunch of J seats, I wouldn't be happy about a bunch of LTPs doing the same. As an actual WP, I believe I'm still ahead of the LTGs

 

[JohnM]

Since earning LTG, I have not dropped below WP. Therefore, it has cost nothing to give me LTG. This may be similar for others and therefore keeps the cost of LTG down to an acceptable level at this stage.

Likewise. LTG is simply my backup for when I become too decrepit to maintain WP - which is my true addiction .

 

[wandering_fred]

I suppose I regret having 1.8K total SCs with QF as had those early flights been credited to AA, the recent alterations to AA's lifetime program would not have been so painful to me (now sitting at 95% of the way to AA LTS). Only having the BIS miles credit to the million-miler program will definitely slow the progress down.

At this point the life time benefits are the OW business check in and free luggage on AA in the USA.

I appreciate the comments on lounge access as a benefit of the QF program, but even the excellence of the Sydney Flounge will not offset the disadvantage of having to transit SYD. :shock: But that might have something to do with my home airport.:mrgreen:

Happy wandering - though with lifetime programs a more direct approach is more effective.

Fred

 

[dfcatch]

You should care. Because when there are too many people with status, and who aren't generating enough profit for QF, then benefits get "enhanced".

I'm sure that QF would love to do away with lifetime status. It's the type of thing that brings in revenue at the front-end, but has a (potentially) never ending liability (whether that be real, or something that they have to keep on their books) - just like defined benefit contribution pensions (and we've all seen what's happened to those).

And if you don't care about the overall picture - just your benefits, consider this: a bunch of LTP all vying for award seats and upgrade opportunites. Those people would be competing with people who are actual WP due to currently earned status. I'm pretty sure the latter wouldn't be too impressed by being squeezed by a bunch of "former" WPs, and I'm pretty sure I know which group QF would prefer to look after. Just like I'm not happy when some ex-pollie and his/her entourage get on a plane and take up a bunch of J seats, I wouldn't be happy about a bunch of LTPs doing the same. As an actual WP, I believe I'm still ahead of the LTGs

1/ I'm sorry - but all this talk of a "never ending liability"???

WTF?

There is no liability.

10 million LTG members costs $0.

There is only a cost when they fly (the same cost as exists for any SG member).

If they are also maintaining WP then there is additional revenue.

Costs are only incurred by LTG members when they actually fly - which means - when they actually generate revenue. Exactly the same as if they were simply a normal SG.

The fact is that QF will simply lose the business (revenue) of those "now casual flyers" who happen to be LTG due to previous FF activity. (if LTG was taken away / made too difficult).

There is no cost, nor any liability for having a LTG on the books. (no more or less than any SG). I'm sure QF has a formula for "average benefit cost per revenue dollar" and this formula would be a "per-flight" issue. Therefore - whether LTG or SG, costs are only incurred when the member flys. No fly - no costs.

2/ I'm more concerned with QF's liability caused by the rampant accumulation of points out there.

Whilst profitable for QFF, the continued "point-flation" means my points will be less and less valuable. It also means I have to compete with more people for award seats.

All these Frequent Spenders are already taking my award seats.

I take your final point - but my bigger concern is frequent spenders.

I just don't agree with the attitude of "I deserve this - but he doesn't".

I think it represents the worst of society.

I have a real problem with people who have this "entitlement" belief where they are entitled to the benefits - but no one else is.

I'm not being personal - but there is a whiff of this in your post.

3/ Remember that these LTPs are ONLY competing for seats and upgrades when they are actually flying.

It takes 20 years of Silver to get LTS.

It takes 20 years of Gold to get LTG.

And at 28,000 SC it takes 20 years of Platinum to get LTP.

4/ To analyze your very last point some more..... I don't want to get into the "Who is more loyal" discussion too much (and this is not directed at you personally - but you'll follow my argument).

A LTP who has been WP for 20 years - is pretty loyal. And given that they only cost benefits when they fly (spend with QF).

If you are a current WP or even WP1 flying on someone else's dime - you're "loyal" to QF today, and I can understand that you feel you're more deserving than a "former WP". And today, QF may agree.

But if you're employer decides tomorrow to start sending you EK F instead of QF on your TT and long-haul trips, I doubt you'll be too upset.

QF on the other hand may have a good reason to value the LTP who spent 20 years as a WP, and continues to give them business (albeit no longer at a WP level), rather than today's employer-funded WP with a sense of entitlement who is gone tomorrow.

It can be argued both ways.

But in Summary IMHO:

1/ Benefits are not a liability - they only cost when the LTP flys.

2/ After 20 years of WP - I don't think it's unreasonable.

3/ Having the incentive beyond LTG (and the revenue it generates) may very well compensate for any "program costs" for having LTP.

 

[Leumas]

I don't follow your logic or your point...??

Lifetime status matters. It's an incentive.

Allow me to explain using myself as Exhibit A.

I have around 5000 lifetime SCs. I will hit LTS after this and next year's WP retain.

I am aiming for LTS as I value the benefit of Lifetime Ruby (particularly as I fly in the US).

Because I am within realistic reach of LTS - I am pushing through to get there. Realistically if it wasn't there, I may very well let my WP lapse this year / or perhaps pursue VA retention as a primary goal.

QF is keeping my business right now because of both the existence and achievability of LTS.

What's my plan beyond that?

I will reassess everything upon reaching LTS, including flying patterns, personal circumstances and finances (I'm self funded), state of airlines and whether VA has joined *A or not. Given I have another couple of WP years planned, a soft landing to Gold, and almost two years of QP on hold, I'm probably in the QF camp for a bit longer..... But if LTG is unachievable for me, then all alternatives are on the table....

So IMHO - lifetime targets are smart business, but they do need to be realistic and achievable. Not easy, but achievable.

If lifetime status is an incentive, when does it end? LTG? LTP? LT-something-else? Using your example, if you're within reach of LTP, and once you've reached it - what happens then? Like you said, you'll most likely reassess everything. It's effectively the same situation now where LTG is the highest lifetime status. Furthermore, as you said, if you aren't flying, you aren't using the benefits. Therefore, the existence of LTP makes little difference.

If, as your previous post, generating more revenue is the goal for QF, then moving the goal posts for LTG will achieve a similar effect. It's not like QF hasn't moved the goal posts on us before...!

Also as you said, the goal should not be easy, but achievable - creating a LTP level risks creating a goal that is not achievable and rendering the whole exercise of creating a LTP level pointless. QF has obviously done a lot of homework in setting the entry criteria for P1. Personally, P1 is something I'll never even come close to - unless someone starts paying my flights. If QF's aim is to generate more revenue, P1 sounds like a much more viable option (for QF) than setting some goals that can only be achieved after many years of heavy flying.

 

[TonyHancock]

The year is 2022, my hair is a little greyer, actually what am I saying I'm completely bald, the company I used to work for finally worked out my incompetence level, so now I'm a self employed consultant. I don't fly much internationally these days so I split my domestic travel between Virgin and the Jetstar Group. (Qantas as we knew it in 2012 is long gone.) I'm cheap so my travel is in discount Y. I struggle to maintain any status with Virgin and fly on the cheapest fares I can.

Fortunately I can use the Jetstar Group lounge when I travel with them and it is great. I'll have a pre flight bite to eat and a few glasses, mmm bottle and a half, of shiraz...along with the other 142 folk on the same flight who all benefited from the LTG status QF had all of those years ago. It's a good job priority boarding is only for WP's because nearly everyone on my flight is SG. How I yearn for those days as a WP, the relentless appalling customer service, the dilution of benefits, the laughable WP1 status, but I digress.

...and we are back in 2012 and I have awoken from my nightmare. I'm in a cold sweat because I realise that my LTG status would never get me in to a Jetstar Group Lounge.

[Mild Sarcasm]Why not just make everyone SG and all of the pax will be happy....or will they? Won't that make everyone loyal? Couldn't they just build bigger lounges?[/Mild Sarcasm]

My concern is purely selfish I fear crowded lounges and the dilution of benefits. I'm probably just being overly pessimistic, but I don't want to suffer the same scenario we had with the influx of the Ansett mob when it was nigh on impossible to get a seat in the QP.

As an aside and slightly off topic I was a little surprised at just how low key the QF acknowledgement of LTG is. Does it appear on the flight manifest?

 

[Simo]

Congrats on lifetime Gold.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

1/ I'm sorry - but all this talk of a "never ending liability"???
WTF?

QF doesn't use a cash accounting system - they'd use an accrual system. Having more WPs (regular + the LTPs) increases the cost of delivery (more pax on each flight will be WP, more callers to the helpline will be WP). You said it yourself: if more people are entitled to use the lounge, then make the lounge bigger - that costs money. Yet there aren't more seats on the plane - just more people entitled to additional services.

And since there is no definite end to when the benefits have t be provided, it's an ongoing liability.

10 million LTG members costs $0.

You're kidding right? If so, then QF could hand out LTP to *everyone*, since it costs nothing. It only costs when they fly. So, make everyone a WP!

When your statement is taken to its logical conclusion, we realise that it's not a valid argument,

I just don't agree with the attitude of "I deserve this - but he doesn't".
I think it represents the worst of society.
I have a real problem with people who have this "entitlement" belief where they are entitled to the benefits - but no one else is.
I'm not being personal - but there is a whiff of this in your post.

huh? I'm looking at this from QF's PoV. It's not in their interests to offer LTP to people. I'm also arguing stating that your belief that it costs nothing is naive. I certainly don't feel entitled to anything.

HOWEVER suppose I had LTP, and in 20 years time, there's some current flyer who does have earned WP. If I was that other flyer, and I missed out on an upgrade because some old codger (me) got it because of flying I did 20 years ago, then I think I'd be miffed. And I think QF cares more about WPs who are current (i.e. earning them money now) rather than WPs that were loyal 20 years ago.

2/ After 20 years of WP - I don't think it's unreasonable.

QANTAS obviously begs to differ.

Personally, I'd love for a LTP. However I'm realistic enough to see that it's not in QF's interest, so I'm not going to sit breathlessly waiting for it.

 

[dfcatch]

QF doesn't use a cash accounting system - they'd use an accrual system. Having more WPs (regular + the LTPs) increases the cost of delivery (more pax on each flight will be WP, more callers to the helpline will be WP). You said it yourself: if more people are entitled to use the lounge, then make the lounge bigger - that costs money. Yet there aren't more seats on the plane - just more people entitled to additional services.

And since there is no definite end to when the benefits have t be provided, it's an ongoing liability.



You're kidding right? If so, then QF could hand out LTP to *everyone*, since it costs nothing. It only costs when they fly. So, make everyone a WP!

When your statement is taken to its logical conclusion, we realise that it's not a valid argument,




huh? I'm looking at this from QF's PoV. It's not in their interests to offer LTP to people. I'm also arguing stating that your belief that it costs nothing is naive. I certainly don't feel entitled to anything.

HOWEVER suppose I had LTP, and in 20 years time, there's some current flyer who does have earned WP. If I was that other flyer, and I missed out on an upgrade because some old codger (me) got it because of flying I did 20 years ago, then I think I'd be miffed. And I think QF cares more about WPs who are current (i.e. earning them money now) rather than WPs that were loyal 20 years ago.



QANTAS obviously begs to differ.

Personally, I'd love for a LTP. However I'm realistic enough to see that it's not in QF's interest, so I'm not going to sit breathlessly waiting for it.

Fair points.

I oversimplified it - but LTPs don't cost anything if they're not flying - that's my point.

When I reach LTS - unless I fly - it costs QF nothing. Same for LTG.

Yes of course they account for it according to their magic formula of cost-per-benefits.

It's like season passes at ski resorts - when I was in ski area management - each resort nominally (and arbitrarily) allocates a number of "skier days" to each pass.

14 odd years ago - where I worked in Australia - we allocated 21 days per season. In the US we allocated 29 days per season.

Now with modern scanning technology it's a lot easier to track this usage. But nonetheless - it was a formula used to account for "visitation counts". (obviously a day ticket counted for 1 day, a 5 day ticket for 5 days etc).

Now QF has a much easier job knowing when, where, how often, and in what manner we fly - so they have it a lot easier to "cost" and "account" for benefits vs revenue. We all know that airlines revolve day to day around sophisticated analytics and modelling.

The model that exists to serve the existence of LTG or LTS is equally as valid for a potential LTP.

Out of all the arguments presented here - the question of "where does it stop" is the most valid IMHO.

I, as a WP already compete with all the other WP's for everything. I'm beaten by P1 and CL, and I hope I beat SG and LTG, and PS and LTS. Now if LTP is introduced - then I also have to compete with former FF's, on the odd occasion that they decide to fly (if it was more than occassional then they would still be WP / WP1 in their own right).

Ultimately - their "accrued liability" for lifetime status holders will depend on their nominal assumption as to future flying patterns by retired LTP's.

 

[Durin's Bane]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

It's certainly been great to read about how others are approaching this 'issue'.

I may do as some have suggested and fly QF to get to WP, and then credit all to AA (I need to join very soon!). However my credit card spend isn't as large as some people's here, so I will assess and see.

Would love to hear from the first person on here that has 'officially' been granted LTP status (if it indeed does exist)... the debate about LTP has been very interesting.

I just hope Qantas don't continue to adjust the benefits across their membership tiers... last thing I want it WP1 start to look like WP of old, and WP become very close to SG...

I wish like I was like a friend of mine who's a dentist with a private practice, and earns close to 2m points per year through company CC spending. He and his wife complete at least one AONE4 every year, with other first/business class jaunts here and there. His only monetary outlay is in airline taxes and surcharges! He's also no where near even LTS as his flights are mostly tickets redeemed with points!!

Regards,
DB.

As an aside and slightly off topic I was a little surprised at just how low key the QF acknowledgement of LTG is. Does it appear on the flight manifest?

I'd love to know. All I got was a short letter in the mail telling me they'll send me a card when I drop WP status with QF...

 

[Brisbane Flyer]

Too funny, so what is LTG...

Spent Friday night in a Q with SQ, at least 45 mins, no big deal, but yes, I was thinking, if I was flying OW...

Then a great flight with SQ, but zero sleep, and spent Saturday afternoon in zombie state...

For me, I hate Q's at airport. Normally fly right thru...Lounges, its here or there. Would that have made a difference, who knows, but I do know
the starting of a journey means alot...

Minor stuff, but then again, I was ratsh** for all of Saturday...

Cheers
BF

 

[Greggsy]

I think the real question is when will they announce LTP1.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Well, it took a bit longer than I expected. Some 3K flights that only just credited yesterday, so now I'm over the 14K mark. No flying the next two months, so it's a bit academic really

 

[ReLoad]

Well, it took a bit longer than I expected. Some 3K flights that only just credited yesterday, so now I'm over the 14K mark. No flying the next two months, so it's a bit academic really

CongrAAtulations. A fine effort and one which certainly needs recognition. Good job.

And in 25 years time, you can tell the grand kiddies, "Back in my day the lounges were only 2 people deep looking for a seat"

 

[JohnM]

CongrAAtulations. A fine effort and one which certainly needs recognition. Good job.

And in 25 years time, you can tell the grand kiddies, "Back in my day the lounges were only 2 people deep looking for a seat"

Back in MY day they weren't full of high-vis :mrgreen:.

 

[moa999]

Also just reached the exaulted heights of LTG (on a CX flight none the less!) and at under the age of 35.

But with base status on AA, CX (soon to be upgraded thanks to Amex Plat) and MH (with 5 dom flights in the last month) I am trying to work out where else.
Also base SQ and (anathema to some) GA Silver

 

[Deleted member 18152]

Has anyone ever established whether a WP LTG trumpts a basic non-LTG WP in terms of upgrade priority/waitlisting/op-ups??? Is it even on the PAX manifest??

 

[Danger]

Has anyone ever established whether a WP LTG trumpts a basic non-LTG WP in terms of upgrade priority/waitlisting/op-ups??? Is it even on the PAX manifest??

I would be surprised if lifetime status came into play with upgrades. Op-ups, maybe, but not everyday points upgrades. The (Lifetime) Silver part and (Lifetime) Gold part (ie. the actual status) would be what's looked at.