First Cabin design workshop

[Flying Fox]

Host: I'm sorry I couldn't help you with xyz, is there anything else I can do for you?

Me: Would it be possible for you to collect us from the lounge when boarding starts and take us to the plane?

Simple, easy and I certainly didn't feel like a tosser.

Oh, I'm going to have to write that down somewhere!

 

[boomy]

I once asked the F host when they phoned if I could reserve a table and while not saying "no" they evaded the issue by saying orders could be taken at the seats, so it wasn't necessary. Wasn't all that happy, but being my usual non pushy self I didn't press the issue. TBH I have never failed to get a table, especially now they have really extended the no of tables. However I wasn't all that happy with the response and it all added to the F- experience, which means now I have booked to fly F with SQ for the first time, in spite of being rock solid QF for so many years.

That's an ongoing problem with QF, inconsistent service without any logic which eventually, as in your case, alienates it's most loyal members.

I've reserved tables twice in SYD. Once as P1 flying F on QF ticket so you may say I got "special" treatment for my status but the other reservation was made as NB flying F on AA ticket. Didn't bother adding my QF number in the booking (status has no meaning when flying F) yet still got a table reserved as requested.

I completely understand your decision to try other airlines. Since EY started flying their better planes to Australia I spent most of my AA miles on them for my flights to Europe instead of QF, even if it's a bit more expensive. Next week I fly to USA, again not on QF although I'm using their points on other carrier.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Host: I'm sorry I couldn't help you with xyz, is there anything else I can do for you?
Me: Would it be possible for you to collect us from the lounge when boarding starts and take us to the plane?

Simple, easy and I certainly didn't feel like a tosser.

I love that line, I'm going to steal it !!

 

[anat0l]

Went through TG F at BKK yesterday. 2 porters to get luggage from hotel car along with an escort at kerbside. Escort lead us through to a dedicated sit-down desk for check-in where 2 glasses of bubbles were waiting as well as cold towels. Porters took luggage over to the bagging area, escort completed formalities, we merely sat down, handed over passports, had a sip and it was all done.
Escort walked us through dedicated immigration and then took us to F lounge in Terminal D (a 60 second walk from check-in) where a host took us to spare seats and handed us menus. Drinks flowed and personal updates for the departure were every 10 or so minutes (departure delayed due to wild storms). Mrs Guvner had a free 60 min massage. Golf cart took us from the lounge to the gate 5 minutes after boarding commenced and escort walked us on board to be greeted by name by the CM, we walked straight on via F bridge and were seated within 60 seconds of arriving at gate.

Contrast that to my experience of QF's ground offering which is, in truth, pathetic for an F product.
No porters
No escorts (that I have ever seen)
Carry your own luggage to the counters
Usually there a are F check-in queues
Find your own way to the lounge
Find your own way to the gate
Find your own seat

Can't say it's a special offering at all.

You'll need to let me know what I'm doing wrong.

I haven't checked in at BKK so don't know about the check-in experience. I've only transited.

Years ago TG met F pax on arrival to cart them to arrivals procedures or escort them to transit. For my last two TG F experiences I've had no cart or escort at all, or in another case we had to wait for one cart to fill up with all F pax before we could go to transit procedures, upon which we were told where to go with no escort to the lounge.

I've never had any cart from lounge to departure gate. (Maybe they saw I am a fat man and think I could use the exercise - just kidding.) Best I've had was an escort staff walking with us (i.e. all us F pax on the same flight) to the top of gate, then seeing us walk down to the gate desk. Always got to the gate with some time to spare before boarding commenced, so find a seat to sit down in the gate area. Once they announced boarding, naturally you would rise up first being in F - no point delaying and then being forced to jockey with the J/*G pax to get on board first, although given that they check off BPs and passports at the desk, heading to the jetway is a mere formality rather than a bottlenecking process. There was no other interaction with TG staff until we got to the plane door.

In fact, my most recent experiences of TG F previously are pretty average, both ground and air. No one was rude, there were no big "fails", and I'm not precious or starving for attention (I don't live a Champagne lifestyle every flying day). TG F has caviar, but the rest of their food is very average, and I'm not necessarily referring to their choices of food, but also the preparation. Only thing with TG F is that it is easily obtainable and relatively cheap.

Moral of the story: I guess we can't have it all, let alone all of the time.

TG F ground service is a textbook example, not a shining beacon.

 

[anat0l]

Personally, it might be nice that QF are looking at their F outlook and bringing in their customers to get their thoughts on it. It's an interesting situation given the global focus off F class and more on making J an experience that closes the differential so much on its superior class. And QF are no different in this regard, with only 3 or 4 routes sporting F service, with no forward vision to push on with other routes.

QF is not alone. SQ reduced their 777 F from 8 to 4 seats; no F on A350s. Whatever market research including their best customers that BA and LH (amongst others) have done, it seems that in most part they are not swayed by having a cabin anywhere near what would appear the "textbook" best (e.g. with showers, bars, fully closing doors and so on).

I'm not expecting anything huge in F from QF, or rather I'm expecting that most will see the new F and rubbish it immediately because it doesn't hold any candles to "the best". Nevertheless, I would think that most - including those here - will still regard it as aspirational to fly the new QF F product, and it will continue to be likewise difficult to get as an award.

 

[froggerADL]

I've done 16 segments with my infant daughter this past year. I'm quite enjoying this front of the line stuff regardless of airline, status or cabin of travel. Now I know why people have multiple kids. It's like renewing super VIP status.

Sure it's been a few years but I've done numerous fully paid F segments on Qantas as Platinum One and never once had any service near what I receive with an infant. Maybe it's something you need to reqest?

What a pity I never want to have kids. I guess no name recognition as a P1 in F will have to do. pout

You don't need kids to get this service. Y, J, F - same deal. Zero additional cost (except some LCCs, e.g. Air Asia).

Escort from check-in to lounge, bypassing immigration & security queues. Just before boarding commences get escorted from lounge to gate. Bypass queues and escorted to plane door and be first to board. Escort to seat. On arrival, be met at plane door and escorted through immigration and customs. Escorted to kerb to taxi/limo/uber/bus stop (yes, I did that at HKG)/train. And you do all of this while sitting down in a chair with wheels.

All that is required is a disability & a walking stick. The best bit is, no rugrat required. They grow up eventually (well, physically at least), what then? Oh yeah, get a walking stick.

At SYD doing Dom to Int and visa versa transfer you even get your own bus so avoid the cattle truck .

There is no better way to fly!

 

[Reeldeel]

I don't "need" a host or porters either but it's a nice to have and is a very noticeable added F service. Last night at BKK there was a massive storm and it was chaos at the airport. Having a seamless service from kerb to aircraft was a treat for us, not an expectation. Why would you knock it back if it was offered?

Also, the service is quite discreet and not done in a "look at me" way. If it was like that I probably wouldn't utilise it as I'm not that personality type. There's no pushing to the front of any queues as there is a dedicated check-in, dedicated immigration/customs, dedicated lounge and dedicated gate/air-bridge. You don't get whisked to the front of anything except the nose of the plane.

Anyway, to try and keep the topic on track, I was trying to provide a real world contrast of the QF F experience with another carrier.

Completely agree with you Guv. Not sure QF can replicate some of the perks that TG (for example) offer. After a long flight in QFFF you are standing in a queue for what seems like an eternity to get to the kerb. My experience in TGF to BKK is a very short trip from aircraft to kerb via diplomatic immigration. Last one was less than 10 minutes.

 

[anat0l]

Completely agree with you Guv. Not sure QF can replicate some of the perks that TG (for example) offer. After a long flight in QFFF you are standing in a queue for what seems like an eternity to get to the kerb. My experience in TGF to BKK is a very short trip from aircraft to kerb via diplomatic immigration. Last one was less than 10 minutes.

I wonder to what extent would QF be able to streamline the inwards arrivals processes for Australia, i.e. be able to use a dedicated or special passport control lane. Other carriers may not like that and cry foul. Or, some authorities in the airport management might not think that is fair and disallow it (besides, those authorities have already made a concession and created "express" paths - what more do people want?).

Then again, for Australian citizens with new passports, passport control is 99% a non-event (and 0.5% in the remainder is because some dumb schlub has screwed with the SmartGate system). I'd be more concerned about how QF (or any airline for that matter) can get luggage quicker off the plane and into the terminal for reclaim. Seeing as that might involve some sort of Ben Hur effort on the implicated unions, I don't see that improving any time soon. And then of course there is priority baggage, about as consistent as predicting Melbourne's weather. And again, Ben Hur and unions....

No decent kind of escorting staff service will streamline the customs process. Unlike in Thailand where you'd need to have been suspected of something big (like drugs), everybody on average will be bottlenecked at an Australian customs point because that's exactly what AQIS and Customs/Border want to do (or have to do, I don't know).

It might be nice if QF maintained a desk or meet-and-greet service on the landside of arrivals, e.g. for escorting arriving pax to their drivers, taxi ranks/Uber-compatible meeting locations, sold train tickets, etc.


Personally, I'd like if QF could section off a portion of the terminal at SYD (and maybe MEL) for exclusive use for their F pax (and maybe the P1s and possibly 2.4k WPs, the latter perhaps only if they are travelling in J or F), or even a separate terminal building. Similar to how SQ have their bit in SIN T3, or LH have in FRA (the best in this example, though there are a few faults / catches) and AF have in CDG (if I'm not mistaken). That said, I don't see QF doing it for the few F pax they have, nor can they acquire a new building to do it, it'll be way too expensive and poor ROI (most likely the evaluation by the QF bean counters), and finally SACL and the company that runs the duty free operation at the airport will likely throw a hissy fit against the idea or demand a king's ransom in compensation (similar to what BA had to bend over and cough up for their innocuous Concorde Room lane at T5).

 

[CaptJCool]

I'm not expecting anything huge in F from QF, or rather I'm expecting that most will see the new F and rubbish it immediately because it doesn't hold any candles to "the best". Nevertheless, I would think that most - including those here - will still regard it as aspirational to fly the new QF F product, and it will continue to be likewise difficult to get as an award.

Well if QF IS less huge than anyone else, why do they price F at more huge than anyone else (except perhaps the Residence)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I've never had any cart from lounge to departure gate.

TG stopped the carts from the lounge to the plane a couple years ago. But it seems per Guvner's post that they might have brought them back?

I've always had them for arrivals (been lucky to never have a bus gate). Waiting to fill up the cart is ok, that's usually only a few seconds if the F cabin comes out all together. A couple time the cart isn't there on arrival but I just wait. The minute or two waiting beats the long walk!

 

[RooFlyer]

Maybe its like putting on an old pair of comfortable slippers, but I found it hard to fault the F cabin lay-out today. I had forgotten how comfortable the bed was, with the fleecy mattress. Much more comfortable than EY's Apartment bed!

I could live with the current design, but good on 'em for asking the punters about changes.

 

[Kangol]

I don't "need" a host or porters either but it's a nice to have and is a very noticeable added F service. Last night at BKK there was a massive storm and it was chaos at the airport. Having a seamless service from kerb to aircraft was a treat for us, not an expectation. Why would you knock it back if it was offered?

It's not so much a matter of individual "needs" or "wants". It's the level of service that the airline wishes to convey to the customer at the applicable class.
Just because an individual doesn't "require" a certain service, does not mean it should not be offered.

I dont need an escort either, but it was our first time flying QF and I figured it was worth enjoying as many perks as possible. Missed out on a massage as the host was hard to locate but when we did meet her, she was lovely. I asked nicely if she would escort us so she collected us from the EK lounge once theyd had the boarding phonecall, showed us to our seats, introduced us to the crew, got our pjs and amenity kits. Its the little things that can make you feel special.

This. The little things. How the airline makes you feel.
In this case, QF are indirectly telling people that "this is the standard we set for F" (inconsistent/no escort offering).
In relative terms, they are saying that "this level is lower than our competition".
Or more explicitly, "we choose to offer less than our competition".
Or even "we don't value our customers that much to offer a standard equal to or higher than our competition".
GA even offer this outside of their home port (LHR)!!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In this case, QF are indirectly telling people that "this is the standard we set for F" (inconsistent/no escort offering).
In relative terms, they are saying that "this level is lower than our competition".
Or more explicitly, "we choose to offer less than our competition".
Or even "we don't value our customers that much to offer a standard equal to or higher than our competition".
GA even offer this outside of their home port (LHR)!!

They say all of this with a 'and we know you'll fly with us regardless because you're chasing status, so we don't need to worry'.

 

[Flying mermaid]

They say all of this with a 'and we know you'll fly with us regardless because you're chasing status, so we don't need to worry'.

I have felt this for some time. Qantas can get away with all the sloppiness and inconsistency, because too many people are locked in. If someone gets really upset throw them a few points and it goes away. Much easier than fixing the service failure for the future.

How many people have huffed and puffed about how unhappy they are about a change and yet continue to fly Qantas? In the old days when TAA and Ansett existed (and prior to this loyalty stuff), people swapped between the two. It was common to see TAA's service/product go down, people would swap to Ansett. TAA would then have an epiphany, ramp up everything, Ansett would become complacent let things fall behind and people would swap back. It was a self correcting mechanism.

Now with Loyalty schemes airlines have a captive audience and the "swing" travellers are probably not enough to alter airlines behaviour.

Had dinner with some friends last night. They used to be the ultimate captive audience as he was CL via his public service position, prior to retirement. They were quite scathing of me earlier in the year, when I said I was planning to try other carriers. How could I possibly not support Australia's airline. However they tried Emirates a few months ago - were totally impressed and were conceding last night that maybe there are better options out there.

 

[Happy Trails]

While the pre-departure and in-flight experiences might be underwhelming, at least you have this to look forward to, if you're connecting.

 

[Spizz]

Did anything come from this ie. new product or service? Or is still in the planning stages?

 

[mviy]

Did anything come from this ie. new product or service? Or is still in the planning stages?

Unfortunately a NDA was required so those who attended can't let us know what happened at the workshop.

There are new pyjamas in F now, but that's hardly a change that alone would require a workshop.

My hope would be the A380s to be refurbished at some point with new F seats along with some changes to the soft product but that may be wishful thinking.

If the A380s are to be refurbished with new F seats I would guess that the refurbishment wouldn't start till next year at the earliest.

 

[moa999]

Not being subject to any NDA, my thoughts of an A380 refurb would be:
New First (possibly relocated upstairs)
Business Suite v2 from 787
New bar area with a real bar like EK, VX
New PE from 787 (yet to be unveiled)
Wi-Fi

Elements might also carry through to a 747ER refurb

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Not being subject to any NDA, my thoughts of an A380 refurb would be:
New First (possibly relocated upstairs)
Business Suite v2 from 787
New bar area with a real bar like EK, VX
New PE from 787 (yet to be unveiled)
Wi-Fi

Elements might also carry through to a 747ER refurb

No doubt with an announcement that the refurbishment will start in two years, and take another few years after that to complete. :-|

So maybe sometime in the 20's?

 

[mviy]

If that happens then once the new PER-LHR flights are in operation QF would possibly be able to start refurbishing the A380 aircraft or at least consider making an announcement of plans to do it. With 787s on MEL-LAX and PER-LHR they may be able to reduce A380 services at least temporarily to be able to do refurbs.

If a refurbishment isn't coming/not one with new F seats then soft product changes could come at any time.

With all J seats getting direct aisle access on the 787 (a key advantage of F on the A380 currently), if QANTAS wants to keep selling F on the A380 in sufficient numbers they need to find an economical way to improve the F product imo whether the changes are hard/soft or a bit of both.