Flight cancellation help requested: Qantas Classic Reward seat via Qatar Airways

[charliebrown]

In terms of the practical steps that you can take at this stage, there appears to be only one that I've seen that has actually helped people.

That is to write emails to members of the Qantas Executive Team, particularly Markus Svensson, the Chief Customer Officer. You can probably find his email online, but they typically follow the format [email protected]

Similar story here

Don’t lose heart keep fighting for your OWA

I thought I would just add my story here for the benefit of others and encouragement to those going through the nightmare of cancelations due to ticketing problems. I have 3 OWA's starting this December for our family: Syd-Hkg-Sin-Hel-Dus-Fco-Lhr-Aus-Iah-Lax-Sfo-Hkg-Syd all in J The problems...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

Thank you both for this, I have sent emails to relevant members of their exec team which hopefully strike the appropriate balance between pleading and professional!

I'd comment this is an issue resulting from QR cancelling the CBR tag service and not to do with ticketing issues - separate things.

I'm really sorry CharlieBrown - this has gotten you a pickle that now seemingly you have no trip to visit family mere weeks prior to departure. this is a horrible situation.
....
This is really shoddy treatment imo by QR (I'm not going to blame QF here for this despite their lack of ability to help) - QR should have offered to rebook all affected by THEIR choice to cancel CBR to go out of MEL or SYD. Obviously they're not (and the world cup puts an extra spanner in the works for the outbound too)

Absolutely agree that this primarily a QR issue: the most recent QF agent said he can see that QR have limited seats on our proposed modified flights and "obviously they want to keep those for revenue customers". I understand this from a business perspective but not an ethical one.

Thank you and all of the members here so much for the kind words, I have truly been soothed by the recognition and am blown away by all of the help.

My June flight has been modified with an additional charge of $45 and 8000 points, and the ticket will allegedly be with me within 24 hours. However the only option the agent could offer me for the January flight was 2 commercial seats for $2000 each. This is unacceptable to me and the agent agreed to call me back "within the hour" to see if he could find cheaper options with different dates and locations around 90 minutes ago, so I'm not feeling hopeful. I knew he was frustrated and trying to get me off the phone and after an hour I admit my dinner was calling so I let him.

I am also going to contact Qatar again and remind them of their obligations under EU261.

 

[serfty]

Absolutely agree that this primarily a QR issue: the most recent QF agent said he can see that QR have limited seats on our proposed modified flights and "obviously they want to keep those for revenue customers". I understand this from a business perspective but not an ethical one.

There is one bit of clarity required here in relation to Qantas reward bookings which included Qatar Canberra flights.

A common occurrence reported has followed the following pattern:

1. Qatar cancelled CBR flights.

2. Qatar generally modified affected bookings rerouting them, often to MEL. Qatar would then have informed the booking agent (in this case Qantas) of the changes and the need for reticketing.

3. Qantas failed to reticket these bookings in time before Qatar to auto cancelled Qatar segments in these unticketed bookings.

@charliebrown, if these three things happened then it is up to Qantas to come up with a solution (other than cancel and refund).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There is one bit of clarity required here in relation to Qantas reward bookings which included Qatar Canberra flights.

A common occurrence reported has followed the following pattern:

1. Qatar cancelled CBR flights.

2. Qatar generally modified affected bookings rerouting them, often to MEL. Qatar would then have informed the booking agent (in this case Qantas) of the changes and the need for reticketing.

3. Qantas failed to reticket these bookings in time before Qatar to auto cancelled Qatar segments in these unticketed bookings.

@charliebrown, if these three things happened then it is up to Qantas to come up with a solution (other than cancel and refund).

That’s is a good point. If the cancellation is due to qantas, not qatar, EU261 may not apply. But the passenger should be given an explanation.

 

[charliebrown]

That’s is a good point. If the cancellation is due to qantas, not qatar, EU261 may not apply. But the passenger should be given an explanation.

Many thanks for the clarification. In this instance it is definitely Qatar who have cancelled the flight. Qantas sent them a request for us to be moved to a flight ending in Melbourne which still has seats but Qatar has declined the request.

 

[RooFlyer]

This is unacceptable to me and the agent agreed to call me back "within the hour" to see if he could find cheaper options with different dates and locations around 90 minutes ago, so I'm not feeling hopeful. I knew he was frustrated and trying to get me off the phone and after an hour I admit my dinner was calling so I let him.

You likely didn't get the call back (its a common tactic of the call centres to get rid of people). If you HAVE to get a revenue fare, use a travel agent to find the lowest price option (may involve some creative routing)

 

[jase05]

Seeing as though it seems to be a fault caused by QF it’s up to them to try and help and I would be asking QF to open up some seats on their own metal on the FCO flight or a LHR flight. Being in Y surely they can make seats available

 

[serfty]

Many thanks for the clarification. In this instance it is definitely Qatar who have cancelled the flight. Qantas sent them a request for us to be moved to a flight ending in Melbourne which still has seats but Qatar has declined the request.

That surprises me as when Qatar cancelled these CBR flights in late October reports are that Qatar at that time rebooked affected passengers onto other flights.

You need to be certain that Qatar did not rebook you at the beginning of November.

There are several reports that Qantas' failure to reissue tickets for affected bookings caused the revised Qatar segments to be cancelled a couple of days later.

e.g. Qatar cancelled Qantas classic rewards after Qantas Failed to Reissue Ticket

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That surprises me as when Qatar cancelled these CBR flights in late October reports are that Qatar at that time rebooked affected passengers onto other flights.

You need to be certain that Qatar did not rebook you at the beginning of November.

There are several reports that Qantas' failure to reissue tickets for affected bookings caused the revised Qatar segments to be cancelled a couple of days later.

e.g. Qatar cancelled Qantas classic rewards

That’s right. And it’s an important distinction.

The call centre may not know the real reason why the flights were ‘cancelled’ on the ticket. Even if it was caused by a failure to ticket the new flights in time, they may be assuming it was a Qatar action or fault.

The distinction is important because if Qatar did offer alternative flights they would have satisfied their EU261 requirements. Qantas’ failure to ticket means the passenger now doesn’t have a valid reservation. Without a valid reservation, EU261 doesn’t apply.

 

[charliebrown]

That’s right. And it’s an important distinction.

The call centre may not know the real reason why the flights were ‘cancelled’ on the ticket. Even if it was caused by a failure to ticket the new flights in time, they may be assuming it was a Qatar action or fault.

The distinction is important because if Qatar did offer alternative flights they would have satisfied their EU261 requirements. Qantas’ failure to ticket means the passenger now doesn’t have a valid reservation. Without a valid reservation, EU261 doesn’t apply.

Thank you, in my next call with Qantas I will ask if this happened

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thank you, in my next call with Qantas I will ask if this happened

Depends if they know! They may either not know, or be reluctant to pass it on.

What happens in 99% of cases with a flight cancellation is that the airline automatically moves you to another of their services. And this is usually outlined in the carrying airline’s terms and conditions.

Sometimes the new flights don’t match up, or during covid, connecting flights left from the ‘wrong’ airport (narita v haneda for example). Or because of the war in Ukraine, connecting flights arrived after the other had left.

But it’s unusual for an airline to completely cancel and leave a passenger stranded. In most cases it’s automatically done by computer.

 

[charliebrown]

Depends if they know! They may either not know, or be reluctant to pass it on.

What happens in 99% of cases with a flight cancellation is that the airline automatically moves you to another of their services. And this is usually outlined in the carrying airline’s terms and conditions.

Sometimes the new flights don’t match up, or during covid, connecting flights left from the ‘wrong’ airport (narita v haneda for example). Or because of the war in Ukraine, connecting flights arrived after the other had left.

But it’s unusual for an airline to completely cancel and leave a passenger stranded. In most cases it’s automatically done by computer.

Qantas have told me that there's no reward availability to move us on to and Qatar are refusing to put us on a different flight - Qantas claims this is to save those seats for revenue customers.

I'm on my second call for the day currently

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Qantas have told me that there's no reward availability to move us on to and Qatar are refusing to put us on a different flight - Qantas claims this is to save those seats for revenue customers.

I'm on my second call for the day currently

The EU obligations are not dependent on award availability. Qatar must offer you alternative routing.

They may have done this, but because the ticket wasn’t reissued in time, the whole set of QR flights cancelled out.

It could be argued that QR’s tight time limits are in breach of EU requirements, but that would possibly be a whole new test case! I dunno… maybe this has arisen and there’s an answer out there somewhere.

If Qantas didn’t reissue the ticket in time, and that’s what caused the cancellation, it should then be for QF to get you on another flight, however they chose to arrange that.

Perhaps you could ask some leading questions, something like… when was the QR flight cancelled? And was a replacement flight automatically provided by QR. I would think this appears in your booking history?

If there was no replacement flight, ever, then QR is still in the hook under EU261. That then opens up channels for you to peruse directly with QR, regardless of QF being the ‘agent’. I’d do this by email, asking the email to be forwarded to QR’s legal department.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Surely Qantas operates flights from London Heathrow to Canberra (via Perth) surely it wouldn’t be too difficult for them to open up a couple seats for OP perhaps having them connect to LHR via AMS or CDG on KLM-Air France.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Surely Qantas operates flights from London Heathrow to Canberra (via Perth) surely it wouldn’t be too difficult for them to open up a couple seats for OP perhaps having them connect to LHR via AMS or CDG on KLM-Air France.

-RooFlyer88

Well yes… but if QF doesn’t believe it is their fault, why open up award seats?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Well yes… but if QF doesn’t believe it is their fault, why open up award seats?

Because it’s a Qantas ticket!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Because it’s a Qantas ticket!

That’s only part of the issue here.

Although qantas issues the ticket, they are doing so as agent for the operating airline. They are simply selling you a seat - albeit an award seat - on another carrier.

The terms and conditions of each carrier apply, not those of Qantas.

I think they have a contractual obligation to ticket in time. That’s owed to us as members of the FF program. But that obligation doesn’t extend to covering or providing alternative flights if a partner airline cancels or reschedules a flight. The latter is out of their control.

Let’s play with an example that AA goes bankrupt and ceases operations… it would be unreasonable for QF to carry all passengers it had ticketed on AA, or to provide paid alternative services.

Getting somewhere on the contractual issue is potentially difficult… see the other threads on NCAT etc. They really should fix the ticketing issue and make this go away.

 

[charliebrown]

The EU obligations are not dependent on award availability. Qatar must offer you alternative routing.

They may have done this, but because the ticket wasn’t reissued in time, the whole set of QR flights cancelled out.

It could be argued that QR’s tight time limits are in breach of EU requirements, but that would possibly be a whole new test case! I dunno… maybe this has arisen and there’s an answer out there somewhere.

If Qantas didn’t reissue the ticket in time, and that’s what caused the cancellation, it should then be for QF to get you on another flight, however they chose to arrange that.

Perhaps you could ask some leading questions, something like… when was the QR flight cancelled? And was a replacement flight automatically provided by QR. I would think this appears in your booking history?

If there was no replacement flight, ever, then QR is still in the hook under EU261. That then opens up channels for you to peruse directly with QR, regardless of QF being the ‘agent’. I’d do this by email, asking the email to be forwarded to QR’s legal department.

Thank you very much for your advice. I've spent a lovely 3 hours on the phone/hold with Qantas tonight re-explaining my situation ad nauseum (their notes system seems absolutely shocking). After about 1hr 13 mins on the phone I was "transferred to a supervisor" only to hear a 'click' and the dreadful sound of their post-call survey. So I had to start again, again.

One agent very helpfully suggested that I rebook onto a commercial flight for upwards of $7000. I had to laugh when another stated "you have to accept when rewards seats are cancelled because points are a reward for your loyalty". I certainly feel very well rewarded and unshakeable in my loyalty.

The most useful nuggets of information:

1. Agent 3 told me that Qantas received the cancellation notice of the flight on the 15th November and that no automatic ticketing occurred - though this seems shady and their noting seems dreadful as they regularly can't find or are slow to find records I know to be accurate
2. She also claimed I "must be mistaken" that other people have had issues with Qantas being slow to reissue tickets leading to cancellation as "[they] share the same system, so it is impossible". And that, essentially, EU261 doesn't apply because it's a redemption.

I have emailed Qatar reminding of them of their obligations under EU261 and asked for it to be forwarded to their legal team but so far the answer has been no.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Qantas may have received notice of the cancellation on the 15th. They also may have had a replacement flight inserted by QR on the 15th! Re ticketing is usually done by the airline at the airline’s prompt, and with qantas and other carriers they usually wait and ask you to ‘accept the changes’. So reticketing often isn’t automatic, if that’s what the agent was trying to convey. In fact the whole problem here is that it *isnt* automatic, leading to the tickets cancelling out.

Point 2 is absolute rubbish, as we all know.

EU261 equally applies to award tickets as it does paid tickets. It’s really annoying that they make stuff up, but that equally that they have such strong convictions in their made up stuff!

The agent on the phone to me was dead serious and 100% believed her own statement as she announced ‘qantas doesn’t fly at all between Sydney and Melbourne after 8am on any day of the week’. And yes, that included paid tickets.

 

[charliebrown]

I’m keeping a summary of everything I’m doing to try to rectify the situation. Potentially this could form the basis of a future advice post for those in similar situations, with the purpose of collating all of the excellent advice I have received.

• I made a complaint to Qatar using [email protected] and have asked this to be forwarded to their legal team as they are repeatedly telling me to go through Qantas. Specifically referencing EU261.
• I have emailed Markus Svensson and Andrew David using email format [email protected] explaining the situation in a calm but detailed way
• I’m calling as often as I can bear (up to daily), getting my partner to help me and keeping records. I have specifically sought information around the cancellation circumstances and so far Qantas agents have dropped that A) Qatar Airways do have suitable seats available, but they “will want to save them for revenue customers”, B) Qatar informed Qantas of the cancellation on 15th November, C) Qatar did not automatically rebook this flight
• I made a complaint to Qantas via https://www.qantas.com/au/en/support/contact-us/customer-care-feedback-form.html Their email response allows you to reply with additional documents/info so I am keeping a call log and sending it to them each time I call. This is today’s (with booking refs etc. redacted):

Call log 1/12/22

Call 1: 26 minutes. Agent unsure why [June flight] was not ticketed. Also wanted to investigate [January flight] on author’s behalf Promised author would receive a call back “within the hour”.

Call 2: 1hour 13 minutes. Had not received call back so author called and re-explained situation again. Agent transferred author to “supervisor”. After holding for supervisor, supervisor immediately disconnected and phone defaulted to feedback form.

Call 3: Call 1 returned at 8:33pm, 60 minutes.

Agent confirmed [June flight] has been processed and will be ticketed “within 5 days”. Note the agent from the previous day had confirmed this would happen “within 24 hours”.

Author re-explained situation again and waited while agent searched for rewards availability from 13th-20th January from Rome, Paris or London. Obviously none to be found.

Agent stated that Qantas received the cancellation notice of the flight on the 15th November and that no automatic ticketing occurred. This seems unusual as a timeline as a google search indicates Qatar decided to stop flying to Canberra in October.

A constant issue has been poor record-keeping: agents regularly can't find or are slow to find records I know to be accurate. For example, agent 3 advised author to wait for Qatar to respond to the rebooking request. Agent insisted that no rejection had been received to this request. Author had to repeatedly insist that agent spoken to on 30/11 had informed author that Qatar have already denied this. Agent eventually unearthed the rejection notification.

Agent suggested that author rebook onto a commercial flight for upwards of $7000. Agent stated "you have to accept when rewards seats are cancelled because points are a reward for your loyalty".

Author explained, again, that Qatar Airways are refusing to assist author directly and redirecting to Qantas. Author explained to agent that, given Qatar Airways obligations under EU261, they are required to offer us alternative passage, and that Qantas are currently acting as author’s agent and should therefore remind Qatar of this obligation and insist they fulfil it. Agent stated words to the effect of “we have already sent the request and it has been denied so there’s nothing we can do”.

Author explained research, primarily forum posts, showing many people experiencing similar difficulties, mostly arising from Qantas failing to promptly reissue tickets for automatically rerouted flights. Agent claimed author "must be mistaken" that other people have had issues with Qantas being slow to reissue tickets leading to cancellation as "we share the same system, so it is impossible". And that, essentially, EU261 doesn't apply because it's a redemption and “we understand it is a law but we have terms and conditions”.

Agent assured author that support team will be in touch via phone tomorrow (2/12/22).

 

[Nitro6333]

You are completely wasting your time and breath talking to o/s call centres about this issue. Hobart are the only ones who will be able to help you. Your on the hamster wheel!