Forfeiture of Qantas Points on Members Death

[medhead]

They only cancelonce they become aware of the death. In my dads case it took quite a while to notify QF. No doubt due to be grieving process. In the case of possible legal actions over accessing the account the key point is that the executor of the will is legally able to deal with the affairs of the deceased. This is different to powers of attorney.

To bloke chasing money from paypal it might be a simple case of the executor writing outlining the legal requirement for paypal to give the money to the estate.

 

[NM]

It is generally somewhat cheaper to have one main holder with several subsdiary cards than everyone holding their own main card (and they may not always be able to hold a card in their own right - it is to some extent a way of making the main holder a guarantor for the rest). There is a choice, but the financial implications of different choices can lead you one way over the other.

I still don't see how someone choosing to operate their frequent spending program in such a manner is of any concern to the writers of the terms and conditions of the Qantas Frequent Flyer program. Qantas Frequent Flyer memberships are individual, personal memberships, not family trusts.

 

[dajop]

The terms and conditions are there for all to see upon joining, and are quite clear about this point. However, terms and conditions change over time, and would it do any harm for the OP and anyone else who felt passionately about the issue to write in to QF to express there views? (the poll answers should perhaps read "desired" rather than "required")

One example is that family transfers were never allowed in the T&C when many joined but are allowed now. Why not a family transfer of the same number of points after death?

The downside if this were to happen it would be part of an overall "enhancement" to the scheme "In the latest round of enhancements, we now offer transfers of outstanding balances to the grieving relatives of the recently deceased. Please note that some award levels have changed. Zone 1 Y 12,000 pts J 20,000pt .......) And nothing in life (or death) is for free, there would need to be an adjustment to factor in that this could reduce some of the rate of miles expiry)

 

[Cocitus23]

I have always considered it to be unfair that your points die with you.

I know of a couple of cases where the bereaved family did exactly as suggested by Kagitower and Chimpy - used the deceased person's password and booked flights for themselves online. So there are two precautions to take before you croak:
1. Make sure that your password is written down somewhere and that your next-of-kin know how to find it; and
2. Make sure that your family, and secretary, are alerted to the wisdom of NOT notifying Qantas of your death.

It would seem to me to be a wise precaution to use up the points balance within a reasonable time, say 12 months.

 

[Natt]

Its unfair

Easy way to fix this is to have the member nominate a recepient in their profile information should they shuffle off.

Qantas could require the person to benefit is a member of the scheme before the death of the person

it is entirely likely that this would keep people in the scheme that might not normally stay - so Qantas benefits

and at the end of the day who actually tells qantas a person has died? generally the person who should be getting the points in the first place :shock:

 

[oz_mark]

I still don't see how someone choosing to operate their frequent spending program in such a manner is of any concern to the writers of the terms and conditions of the Qantas Frequent Flyer program. Qantas Frequent Flyer memberships are individual, personal memberships, not family trusts.

Well, for some people it came about by Qantas in their attempt to take control of loyalty programs. For example, with Citibank rewards, deceased estates have six months to decide what to do with points. After the push from Qantas to direct credits, anyone taking up that option loses that.

 

[samh004]

It would seem to me to be a wise precaution to use up the points balance within a reasonable time, say 12 months.

Wouldn't be necessary if they had an EDR card, a transaction at woolies every 3 years would extend the points balance, until you've used them up.

 

[Cocitus23]

Its unfair

who actually tells qantas a person has died? generally the person who should be getting the points in the first place :shock:

Your word "generally" is appropriate, but I know of one case where a diligent (and unwitting) secretary informed Qantas of her late manager's death, and in doing so removed from his family access to more than a million points.

 

[Mal]

It is interesting to note that Velocity allows your points to be transferred after death, as long as the executor of the will advises Velocity Rewards within 12 months after the death.

This thread at Flyertalk is quite interesting and outlines how many schemes deal with this issue:
A summary of what happens with your miles after death? - FlyerTalk Forums

Note that it's about 50/50 for schemes overall. Some do, some don't. So Qantas isn't unique in their approach.

 

[NM]

Your word "generally" is appropriate, but I know of one case where a diligent (and unwitting) secretary informed Qantas of her late manager's death, and in doing so removed from his family access to more than a million points.

A million points to which the family had no rights according to the terms and conditions of the program as agreed by the member when he joined. I would expect that Qantas would be able to successfully argue that using a deceased family member's Frequent Flyer account would constitute fraud.

Whether or not you or I believe they have a moral right to the points does not alter the legal position that I expect is firmly defined and defensible by Qantas as defined by the terms and conditions of membership.

 

[Dave Noble]

Your word "generally" is appropriate, but I know of one case where a diligent (and unwitting) secretary informed Qantas of her late manager's death, and in doing so removed from his family access to more than a million points.

The points which did not belong to them nor had any right to? Sounds like the secretary removed tempation of crime from them

Dave

 

[JohnK]

It is interesting to note that Velocity allows your points to be transferred after death, as long as the executor of the will advises Velocity Rewards within 12 months after the death.

I think that is a great idea.

I know it is written in the terms and conditions but I do not see the issue of allowing either use of the points or points transfers to family accounts after death.

 

[pauly7]

Good on you, I would have done the same, but saying that...... just be aware that if they found out, that could have legal implications. E.g. if you have power of attorney of someone and they die, technically you can still access their bank account as it has not been frozen (will be when someone notifies them)... and if you did touch it after the death, they may be able to take legal action against you.

Um isn't that fraud?

 

[dajop]

does not alter the legal position that I expect is firmly defined and defensible by Qantas as defined by the terms and conditions of membership.

But for QF to prosecute I imagine there would have to be quite a lot of it going on and therefore a desire to establish a "don't mess with me" precedent. The PR downsides to any such case (unless the target of the was carefully selected) would, I imagine, be significant. Can you imagine the news.com.au stories if perchance one of the bushfire/flood/storm victim's families were taken to court because they fraudently made use of 250K FF points.

 

[tuapekastar]

8.3 Membership will terminate automatically on the death of a Member. Points earned but not yet redeemed or transferred prior to the death of the Member will be cancelled. Qantas will close the Member's account on notification of the Member's death. Qantas will not be liable for any loss or damage whatsoever suffered by any person as a result of such cancellation

That's the relevant clause. Obviously membership does not terminate automatically on the death of a member, unless QF has worked out some sort of transcendental way of being notified the second a member expires.

"Qantas will close the Member's account on notification of the Member's death" - so the account is open until notification of death (whenever that may take place - there is no apparent obligation to advise QF), but membership is terminated immediately (automatically!)...we have (for an apparently indefinite period - well potentially 3 years at least) a dead non-member with a valid open account.

"Points earned but not yet redeemed or transferred prior to the death of the Member will be cancelled" - and those which were redeemed/transferred between the death and the notification? (when is the 'official' death of the member for QF purposes - by death certificate, or by when they are notified)

So are we operating a valid account between actual death and notification or not?

Look, I know the intention of the wording, and TBH, they are the terms you you join QFF on, regardless of whether you think it fair or otherwise.

Having said that, and particularly given the wording of 8.3, I'll try and make sure any QFF points I have left when I drop off the twig get utilised by family, and will do so without a guilty conscience, despite a couple of the mildly alarming allusions to crime and fraud in this thread. And, being six feet (or a whole lot further :shock underground, I won't be too concerned.

And I'd do the same in reverse (use a deceased forebear's points).

 

[Cocitus23]

Look, I know the intention of the wording, and TBH, they are the terms you you join QFF on, regardless of whether you think it fair or otherwise.

Having said that, and particularly given the wording of 8.3, I'll try and make sure any QFF points I have left when I drop off the twig get utilised by family, and will do so without a guilty conscience, despite a couple of the mildly alarming allusions to crime and fraud in this thread. And, being six feet (or a whole lot further :shock underground, I won't be too concerned.

And I'd do the same in reverse (use a deceased forebear's points).[/quote]

Tuapekastar, of you Shakespeare would proclaim "A Daniel come to judgement! Yea, a Daniel". IMHO, yours are the wisest words spoken in this thread, and you have been very observant in noticing the words in Clause 8.3 about the account being closed upon notification of the death. (I wonder in fact if this was quite deliberate by Qantas, to provide a way out of being seen as heartless and lacking compassion. As someone else observed above, you would wonder about the PR minefield of them actually launching a prosecution.) I too found the warnings about crime, fraud and theft all a little too legalistic and gloomy, whilst I appreciate the fact that they were raised for us to consider.

 

[medhead]

A million points to which the family had no rights according to the terms and conditions of the program as agreed by the member when he joined. I would expect that Qantas would be able to successfully argue that using a deceased family member's Frequent Flyer account would constitute fraud.

Whether or not you or I believe they have a moral right to the points does not alter the legal position that I expect is firmly defined and defensible by Qantas as defined by the terms and conditions of membership.

NM, in general I see your point (and I really don't have a firm opinion either way, other then it seems little more that money grubbing for QF to cancel the points.)

But in quoting and focussing on one aspect of the T&C I think your missing another aspect. The member is also entitled to use their points to fly family members under the T&C. If they determined to do that in their will, then they are perfectly entitled to do so at the time they make the will. Yes the members points are not a family trust and they are not the fami'es points. But they are the members points! :-|

 

[cove]

Death and taxes do seem pretty inevitable.
Frequent flyer points are there to be used to the max but if one expires with points on hand it sure could be handy for family to know that pin number.

 

[medhead]

The points which did not belong to them nor had any right to? Sounds like the secretary removed tempation of crime from them

Dave

Crime! what crime?

Do you know that the member didn't leave specific instructions to the family to use his points and had already determined to use the points in that way. Or even instruction in the will. The only other suggestion relates to using a power of attorney after they die, but do you know that the family members aren't executors of the will. After dead the executor has broad powers to deal in the affairs of the decease. Besides you also miss the point that the points are not cancelled until qantas is notified.

As I already mentioned let you grief guide you on when it is best to notify Qantas.

 

[Dave Noble]

Crime! what crime?

Do you know that the member didn't leave specific instructions to the family to use his points and had already determined to use the points in that way. Or even instruction in the will. The only other suggestion relates to using a power of attorney after they die, but do you know that the family members aren't executors of the will.

It states

8.3 Membership will terminate automatically on the death of a Member. Points earned but not yet redeemed or transferred prior to the death of the Member will be cancelled

Whether notified or not, points earned before death ( not notification of ) are cancelled

The only way that the transfer can be performed after death is by claiming to be the member and making the transfer

Whether you might get away with it is irrelevent

Dave