Freedom of speech

[drron]

As far as Folau is concerned they are the truth and he believes he is helping others by pointing out how they can help themselves by repenting.
He also believes he is a sinner and must take the same advice.
You could also say those who are discrediting Folau for his beliefs are the catylyst for bullying,villification and discrimination of Christians.

 

[JohnK]

According to wikipedia (which can often be inaccurate), Corinthians was allegedly written in AD53-57 some 20years or so after the death of JC.

The first major translation and one of the more common versions of the bible was carried out in the term of King James I and published in 1611.

The first recorded (so far) coining of the term "homosexuality" was in 1892 and didn't come into common use until after 1906

Not sure how Paul would have come to use the word in his letters in AD53??

Could your "quote" actually just be someone else's mere interpretation of an imperfect translation of what he/she thought Paul might have meant when he wrote the letters some 2000 years later.

Just a idle thought of mine.

Corinthians 6:9-11 does not mention homosexuality but does mention "Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards not slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of Hod." so I guess people substitute homosexuality in this phrase.

 

[JohnK]

In the 12 pages of this thread so far, no one has agreed with the contents of Folau's comments (that 'hell awaits' homosexuals).

Everyone accepts that comments like this, once they get disseminated, can have a profound impact on vulnerable people - either for their own self esteem, or be used by homophobics as the catalyst for bullying, villification or discrimination.

No one has argued his comments are beneficial, in the public interest, or accurate.

So what exactly is the argument in favour of broadcasting these types of comments?

Firstly it doesn't matter if his comments are beneficial to society or that they are accurate. He is expressing an opinion he believes is true.

Secondly there are 9 types of people listed in that Corinthians passage that will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You're picking on one of those 9 types. What about drunks? Thieves? Promiscuous people?

And according to Folau, I'm going to Hell as more than one of the things on his list applies to me. I really don't care what he thinks. Whether I'm going to Hell or not depends on my first official meeting with my Creator once I move on from the mortal realm.

Why do people care so much and focus on one point? There's a lot of garbage on the internet. Ignoring it is by far the best solution.

 

[theblank]

I do not believe that warriors trying to prevent youth suicide are taking issue with Folau’s views ‘just for the sake of it’.

Folaus views are that Jesus saves lives. This would be helpful to anyone considering suicide.

Homosexuality, unlike all the other things on the list, is not a choice. Times have changed, thanks to science.

Nope

 

[theblank]

In the 12 pages of this thread so far, no one has agreed with the contents of Folau's comments (that 'hell awaits' homosexuals).

He never made such a comment.

Everyone accepts that comments like this, once they get disseminated, can have a profound impact on vulnerable people - either for their own self esteem, or be used by homophobics as the catalyst for bullying, villification or discrimination.

Fake outrage. How could anything Folau quotes from the bible, about hell, impact anyone that disagrees with foloau, doesnt beleove the bible to be authoriative, and doesnt beleive that hells exist.

No one has argued his comments are beneficial, in the public interest, or accurate.

perhaps you have just chosen to ignore the many maintstream articles that have said exactly that

 

[get me outta here]

I think we have reached peak fake out rage!

 

[theblank]

Perhaps to be accurate, they are the translated version of someone else's interpretation (probably of someone else's intrepretation) of Jesus Christ's views.

Thats incorrect on so many grounds, each translation into any language is done from the original sources, and by teams of up to 100's of experts, all agreeing. There is no translations from translations anymore, like I think the original King James was translated from the Latin Vulgate

the Authenticity of the NT (and the OT) is considered unquestionably accurate to the orginal writings more than any other ancient document in history. There has simply being far to many manuscripts found, and there really isnt any difficulties translating from the NT as its all written in greek.

You left out the bit where they are actually just the opinions of people who were not there at the time of the alleged statements, did not meet or know any of the people who were there at the time and decided to write down some stuff they may or may not have heard from someone up to some 200 years after it was alleged some of this stuff, or something like it, may have been said by someone at the time.

too much watching the likes of Tom Hanks movies about Jesus having kids. Everything you write there is just completely made up.

The facts are that the well documented writings from the early church leaders 100-150 AD quoted the gospels so much, it proves the gospels were written before 100AD
Its well established Mark was first around 40-50AD and John last at around 93AD at the latest.
Paul wrote most of his letters within 20 years of Christs death.
All have been written by direct eyewitnesses or by those who knew the eyewitnesses, or in the case of Luke, researched, interviewed, and read all possible information for his compiled account.

Nothing in the NT was written 200 years after. thats an absolute.

 

[p--and--t]

Nothing in the NT was written 200 years after. thats an absolute.

Apologies for writing 200 years instead of up to 100 years. Paul was quite an exception, he allegedly lived up to around early sixties when the average lifespan at that time was 35-40 years.

I am however intrigued why there is so much focus only on one verse of the bible and a blind eye turned to so many others about all the other abominations and/or rules listed in various other areas like....

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20

or

When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

or

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19

or

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27

or

All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 9:10

or

Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk. Exodus 23:19

or

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

or

You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT

or

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT

or

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

or

No one whose testicl_s are crushed or whose cough is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1 NRSV

or

Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same. Luke 3:11 NIV

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why do people care so much and focus on one point? There's a lot of garbage on the internet. Ignoring it is by far the best solution.

We care so much and focus because of the impact it can have on the most vulnerable in society. This isn’t about you JohnK, or me. And we shouldn’t be considering Folau’s comments from a personal perspective.

We need to think how his comments impact on gay children, and the people that might bully those children.

Picking up on an earlier comment you made in this thread... you may not care that your ethnicity was made a joke of at school, but your daughter may not feel the same, or be able to cope in the same way you did. The very reason that someone personally doesnt see it as a problem is perhaps why we should be thankful that other people out there do (care).

 

[JohnK]

Picking up on an earlier comment you made in this thread... you may not care that your ethnicity was made a joke of at school, but your daughter may not feel the same, or be able to cope in the same way you did. The very reason that someone personally doesnt see it as a problem is perhaps why we should be thankful that other people out there do (care).

And this is exactly how the Borg started. Mind control. Everyone thinking the same.

You keep harping on about this one point about protecting the individuality of a confused child but at the same time you are destroying the individuality of people who think different or have different beliefs that don't align to yours.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And this is exactly how the Borg started. Mind control. Everyone thinking the same.

You keep harping on about this one point about protecting the individuality of a confused child but at the same time you are destroying the individuality of people who think different or have different beliefs that don't align to yours.

Not at all. Only for potentially harmful comments. Folau doesn’t need protecting. Nor does anyone else wanting to spout rubbish about how they dislike someone for no other reason than the person is gay, or not white, or a woman.

 

[Isochronous]

Not at all. Only for potentially harmful comments. Folau doesn’t need protecting. Nor does anyone else wanting to spout rubbish about how they dislike someone for no other reason than the person is gay, or not white, or a woman.

You are make assumptions about Folau's state of mind and intent that you cannot prove. Condemnation of the sin is not the same as condemnation of the sinner. And as Folau has stated multiple times, he believes that (1) everyone is a sinner; and (2) everyone is capable of salvation. There's nothing hateful about that.

How do you think Islander rugby players feel now that they see that they can lose the ability to play rugby for having the same cultural and religious beliefs as their family and as many generations of their ancestors have?

 

[love_the_life]

You are make assumptions about Folau's state of mind and intent that you cannot prove. Condemnation of the sin is not the same as condemnation of the sinner. And as Folau has stated multiple times, he believes that (1) everyone is a sinner; and (2) everyone is capable of salvation. There's nothing hateful about that.

How do you think Islander rugby players feel now that they see that they can lose the ability to play rugby for having the same cultural and religious beliefs as their family and as many generations of their ancestors have?

No one said they can't believe at all. What he did do was break the terms of his contract. Now if he believed strongly in his right to make these comments (and what other rugby players with the same beliefs need to consider in the future), he should not have signed the contract in the first place. I am not surprised that he still wants his money and so his lawyers will appeal; that seems shallow to me.

 

[burmans]

How do you think Islander rugby players feel now that they see that they can lose the ability to play rugby for having the same cultural and religious beliefs as their family and as many generations of their ancestors have?

Another gross generalisation not supported by the facts. Islander rugby players are myriad, and many (if not most) have the same or similar cultural and religious beliefs as Israel has.

Despite your efforts to portray is as such its never been about the belief themselves, its about how Israel expressed them in a public forum. This is evidenced by the facts, many people have the beliefs, its only the one who chose to ignore many request and his own agreement not to post them on social media who is being called to account.

 

[burmans]

And this is exactly how the Borg started. Mind control. Everyone thinking the same.

Some would suggest that's how religion started too, as a way to control the masses.

PS. You do know the Borg is fictional, dont you?

 

[JohnK]

Some would suggest that's how religion started too, as a way to control the masses.

PS. You do know the Borg is fictional, dont you?

The Borg started out fictional but we've made them real. Society is quickly transforming into the Borg.

The day everyone thinks and behaves the same is the end of civilisation as we know it.

 

[dajop]

The Borg started out fictional but we've made them real. Society is quickly transforming into the Borg.

The day everyone thinks and behaves the same is the end of civilisation as we know it.

If don’t know the Borg, but if you want to view an increasingly Orwellian 1984 style society in action, take a trip to China.

On the other hand, If you really want to restore your faith in humanity and observe that many people still behave and think very differently to each other take a trip to India.

 

[theblank]

I am however intrigued why there is so much focus only on one verse of the bible and a blind eye turned to so many others about all the other abominations and/or rules listed in various other areas like....

There is no blind eye turned at all. Christians understand this very well.

It may be intgriguing to you because you havent taken the time to consider the context (defined in each chapter) or the historical arc (defined in Exodus), all you have done is blindly copy and paste some quotes from somewhere else.

Please do some homework and justify why these have relevance today, considering that Christian theologians for 2000 years have no trouble at all understanding why they are not (and me, and Israel Folau, and Jesus Christ, Paul and the crew)

Just because there is a rule, doesnt mean it is a sin, an abomination or a crime against god. Many of these instructions were established to set the Israelites apart from other nations because there is a special purpose for them. In other words, God is saying through Moses, dont do what they are doing, I want you to be different, and they remain so to this very day.

These issues have no relevance today. For sure there are some sections of Lev/Duet that clearly define what is right or wrong, and its easy to tell them apart compared to ceremonial rituals and the like.

 

[CaptJCool]

The political correctness of the atheists who should not in the least be offended by the God-botherers condemnation is confected rubbish

Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

I would note two things

St Paul said “put aside your natural desires and follow Christ”
So every religion demands its adherents to put aside ordinary human behaviour,


Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written at a time where Personal hygiene and survival / sustainment of the race were at the forefront’s of the minds of the authors. You ate shellfish you died, you at pork you died , you didn’t procreate your race died, and you passed bacteria’s and diseases on from pleasures that today can be protected by things like condoms.....

Even Bill Shorten said he has a right to religious freedom and freedom of speech. And he shouldn’t lose his employment for it. It’s in the 3rd debate at the National Press Club. Sounds to me the sponsors Are calling the shots in this one. I didn’t know they paid for editorial content... muses

Rugby preaches inclusiveness but doesn’t practice it. It’s not for a sport to moralise and change the landscape of the country

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The Borg started out fictional but we've made them real. Society is quickly transforming into the Borg.

The day everyone thinks and behaves the same is the end of civilisation as we know it.

But there are certain issues where we must think the same... domestic violence cannot be accepted....racial villification cannot be accepted. Discrimination, sexual harrassment, not acceptable.

We can disagree till the cows come home on which political party is the best for our economy.

But there are some fundamentals which make for a safer and more enriched society.