General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Quickstatus]

Discussions with a colleague with quantitative Covid antibody assays:

Basically even if the assay antibody levels are zero, it does not necessarily indicate protection has waned or non existent. In other words, high antibody levels can be predictive for protection but no antibody does not mean no protection. Degree of protection and what is high or adequate is not known.

Basic understanding of immunology supports this - particularly the function of Memory B and Killer T cells which are not reflected in antibody tests.

 

[Lynda2475]

And UK has now approved boosters for everyone 18 and over, bringing into alignment with Australia, USA and Israel.

 

[jrfsp]

This is not really surprisingly from the ceo of moderna, but still concerning - even if only for public perception.

The chief executive of Moderna has predicted that existing vaccines will be much less effective at tackling Omicron than earlier strains of COVID-19.
“There is no world, I think, where [the effectiveness] is the same level . . . we had with delta,” Mr Bancel told the Financial Times in an interview at the company’s headquarters in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

He added: “I think it’s going to be a material drop. I just don’t know how much because we need to wait for the data. But all the scientists I’ve talked to . . . are like ‘this is not going to be good’.”

Moderna chief warns existing vaccines will struggle with omicron

Stephane Bancel said the high number of omicron mutations on the spike protein and the rapid spread of the variant in South Africa, suggested the current crop of vaccines may need to be modified next year.

www.afr.com

 

[ethernet]

For .au, boosters at 6 months, but in todays expert panel, suggested from 3 months. Yet there has been little real thought put into those who had AZ, or those who had Mrna jammed in (2-3 weeks). Under that logic the shuttle driver who started? the NSW outbreak may not qualify, and a braindead rule that does not factor in age, much. I speculate spending much time in a high rise tower is a risk factor(see Singapore). When Delta was new, I don't recall Pifzer and the like making claims that quantitatively and qualitatively different enough for them to cook up new batches. It was up to Israel and Singapore to call out the need for booster shots. I believe the outcome is 80% is not enough, up it to 95% plus. Even ACT at 98.3% can't rid this pesky Covid. We know that 10% of the unvaccinated population can keep hospitals busy. Austria and Germany are having a Delta bushfire, and I suggest it matters little should it be delta or omicron.

We need an innovative Jab campaign/commercials. At the pub today, the antivaxxer religiously vaccinates his dogs cats and sheep. But not himself. I think this could be good ad material. For Victoria a bumper Sticker 'If your not vaccinated yet - I will assume you are a Collingwood supporter' . Medical shorthand DNR CS

 

[Quickstatus]

We need an innovative Jab campaign/commercials

Pity that the Federal govt spent less on Covid advertising than taxpayer funded advertising at the last Federal election costing around $175M.
Someone correct me please Im wrong....

Innovative campaigns when at the same time treating antivaxxers with derision? - might as well pissup the money against the wall.
Mandates and mandates by stealth can undermine public support, creating a backlash and even reducing vaccine uptake making the whole idea counterproductive
The purpose of risk communication is to inform the decision-making process and respecting individual choice.
Mandates fundamentally alter this dynamic by overriding personal autonomy

 

[Flashback]

And UK has now approved boosters for everyone 18 and over, bringing into alignment with Australia, USA and Israel.

Not available for booking though, that will still be phased. To be honest the plan was always 18+ but they were doing it in 10 year stages to stop people constantly contacting 119 asking when they can get theirs. Now their hand has been forced.....

 

[drron]

For .au, boosters at 6 months, but in todays expert panel, suggested from 3 months. Yet there has been little real thought put into those who had AZ, or those who had Mrna jammed in (2-3 weeks). Under that logic the shuttle driver who started? the NSW outbreak may not qualify, and a braindead rule that does not factor in age, much. I speculate spending much time in a high rise tower is a risk factor(see Singapore). When Delta was new, I don't recall Pifzer and the like making claims that quantitatively and qualitatively different enough for them to cook up new batches. It was up to Israel and Singapore to call out the need for booster shots. I believe the outcome is 80% is not enough, up it to 95% plus. Even ACT at 98.3% can't rid this pesky Covid. We know that 10% of the unvaccinated population can keep hospitals busy. Austria and Germany are having a Delta bushfire, and I suggest it matters little should it be delta or omicron.

We need an innovative Jab campaign/commercials. At the pub today, the antivaxxer religiously vaccinates his dogs cats and sheep. But not himself. I think this could be good ad material. For Victoria a bumper Sticker 'If your not vaccinated yet - I will assume you are a Collingwood supporter' . Medical shorthand DNR CS

But the Pfizer CEO did make the same claim even to saying it would take 100 days to have the new vaccine ready.

Coronavirus Archives

bestlifeonline.com

 

[ethernet]

But the Pfizer CEO did make the same claim even to saying it would take 100 days to have the new vaccine ready.

Coronavirus Archives

bestlifeonline.com

I think I read the computer model was done a dusted in about 2 days for covid original. And that they were preparing for more variants. Maybe that model is a tad broken because transmissiblity and spike changed quite a lot and N to the power of whatever, is more crunching time. In vitro indicators should be ready in under 7 days. Increased transmissiblity is a good thing sales wise. If the new variant drops things 5-10%, that may not be enough to kill the production lines and justify testing from scratch, relative to saying OUR booster is necessary a tad sooner - the message is unchanged - vaccinate. This will not be comfortable to the billions of people with waning AZ jabs. Same reason why a kid 11.9 yo gets 1/3 of the dose, but 12yo gets full strength. Or why Canada thought 6 weeks was a better interval than 3. As natural infection affords best protection with some combo of vaccination, I would rather accept that risk after a 3rd booster. Singapore has recorded >6 cases of really bad damage for the unvaccinated (some complex term) so it madness not to get vaccinated if stocks are available. Bring on the peptide solutions.

 

[ethernet]

But why do you think it is necessary to have qualitative antibody levels to know if you need a booster at 5 or 6 months or longer?
Neither the CDC or FDA in the USA believe antibody levels should be used for that purpose.

Labs

COVID-19 resources and guidelines for labs and laboratory workers.

www.cdc.gov

So you need to know just what antibody your test is testing.

And from the FDA.

Antibody Testing Not Recommended to Assess Immunity After Vaccination

FDA reminds the public and health care providers that SARS-CoV-2 antibody test results should not be used to evaluate a person’s level of immunity from COVID-19

www.fda.gov

And an article from an MS patient who did get a qualitative antibody test done.

Do High Antibody Levels Mean I’m Protected Against COVID-19?

Columnist Ed Tobias receives the results from his SARS-CoV-2 antibody test. But do these numbers really matter? He investigates.

multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com

There is also new evidence with the delta strain that it is not only mutations of the spike protein (which is what current vaccines target) but changes in the N protein which cause an infected cell to produce way more viral copies so making it more likely to spread.

New Clues to Delta Variant’s Spread in Studies of Virus-Like Particles

About 70,000 people in the United States are diagnosed with COVID-19 each and every day. It’s clear that these new cases are being driven by the more-infectious Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, the nov…

directorsblog.nih.gov

So with due respect if you are travelling to an area with high covid numbers get a booster at 5 months.It shouldn't be too hard to find a GP or pharmacist who will give you a third dose.It is what i intend to do if there are large community numbers in Northern Tasmania in December or early January.

Totally agree. For that purpose. Tick. But the national health authority who purchase these vaccines should be doing community and internal population studies to know actual on the ground situation numbers . In Singapore, they got lots of 'volunteers' to be the proverbial canary. They ran an internal under 12yo vaccination with volunteers, not taking the word of any drug company. So you do not get a Austria situation when things get out of hand, Vs Israel who went first. because they had real usable numbers. I do not know if Australia has 300 or more volunteer canaries giving samples each week.

 

[Jenya]

not taking the word of any drug company

exactly. I would not take word of any of CFC FDA ATAGI whatever because immune response such an individual thing.
Would like to be that canary to get my numbers at least that way.

 

[Quickstatus]

should be doing community and internal population studies to know actual on the ground situation numbers

It is my understanding that several such studies are underway.

 

[drron]

Two points. I am actually trying to get someone tested for her antibody titres but because she is obviously immunocompromised though not on the list of diseases that would get you a third dose automatically.

But another problem with vaccines which may turn out to be a serious problem.

A new study was presented by Dr. Steven Grundy at the Scientific Sessions of the American Heart Association annual conference on November 8, 2021, and published in the Circulation scientific journal, found an increased heart health risk related to mRNA based COVID-19 vaccines.


These researchers conclude 'that the mRNA vaccine dramatically increases inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination.'

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

 

[OZDUCK]

Seems to be some solid progress on the reasons for the rare blood clotting problem with the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Covid: Trigger of rare blood clots with AstraZeneca jab found by scientists

Researchers in Cardiff and the US work out how the Covid jab may be linked to the extremely rare clots.

www.bbc.com

 

[jrfsp]

Pfizer boss: Annual Covid jabs for years to come

In an exclusive interview, Dr Albert Bourla says jabs have saved millions of lives.

www.bbc.com

Hardly surprising but Pfizer CEO claiming annual vaccine will be needed "for years to come".

 

[Lynda2475]

Hardly surprising but Pfizer CEO claiming annual vaccine will be needed "for years to come".

Given the rate at which corona viruses mutate, hard to believe anyone would think differently? We get annual flu shots, Covid will be the same.

 

[ethernet]

No

Seems to be some solid progress on the reasons for the rare blood clotting problem with the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Covid: Trigger of rare blood clots with AstraZeneca jab found by scientists

Researchers in Cardiff and the US work out how the Covid jab may be linked to the extremely rare clots.

www.bbc.com

Not really. The Germans released something like this >4 months ago. The fist two words of the research paper started with 'Vaccine induced' which caused a flurry of denials., and more comparisons for Heparin HIT.
On vaccine induced heart damage, BOTH damage the heart tissues (qualification -rats or similar) if intravenous leakage. their paper - some leakage. Well aspirate for G's sake. On the claim that there are some independant Australian 'canary' studies being done - well were are they? This is the right forum. I casually observe Israel and Singapore pretty much publish weekly, they don't care about divergence - at all.

 

[drron]

Pfizer boss: Annual Covid jabs for years to come

In an exclusive interview, Dr Albert Bourla says jabs have saved millions of lives.

www.bbc.com

Hardly surprising but Pfizer CEO claiming annual vaccine will be needed "for years to come".

But the original "inventor" of the Pfizer vaccine BNT has a somewhat different view. the CEO thinks the vaccine will be effective in preventing severe disease and hospitaliasation and worries more about the unvaccinated than Omicron.

BioNTech CEO says vaccine likely to protect against severe COVID from Omicron

BioNTech and Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine will likely offer strong protection against any severe disease from the new Omicron virus variant, BioNTech's Chief Executive told Reuters, as the firm weighs the need to upgrade its commonly used shot.

www.reuters.com

 

[Quickstatus]

the claim that there are some independant Australian 'canary' studies being done - well were are they?

It is my understanding the organisations mentioned here are involved. You could ask them directly to confirm

 

[Quickstatus]

aspirate for G's sake

Nice idea but aspiration does not necessarily prevent inadvertent intravenous injection.

Here is a reasonable review article on preinjection aspiration.

Let’s say there was negative aspiration prior to injection, what is to say that the needle tip is not intravenous during injection

Let’s use adrenaline as an example. Adrenaline is used by many non medical people to treat acute anaphylaxis - the EpiPen is one brand. Kids bring it with them to school and teachers administer it.
Inadvertent intravenous adrenaline can cause dangerous effects on the heart. So aspiration prior to injection is theoretically good.
You would be interested to know that the EpiPen provides NO ability for preinjection aspiration as it is an auto injection system.

Bottom line: Aspiration does not eliminate inadvertent intravenous injection. The needle can be intravenous and get a negative aspiration - yes it can. The needle may not be intravenous initially but the act of aspiration moves the needle slightly so that it can become intravenous during injection.

How common is the risk of inadvertent injection?

 

[ethernet]

Nice idea but aspiration does not necessarily prevent inadvertent intravenous injection and may not even prevent inadvertent intravenous injection.

Here is a reasonable review article on preinjection aspiration.

Let’s say there was negative aspiration prior to injection, what is to say that the needle tip is not intravenous during injection

Let’s use adrenaline as an example. Adrenaline is used by many non medical people to treat acute anaphylaxis - the EpiPen is one brand. Kids bring it with them to school and teachers administer it.
Inadvertent intravenous adrenaline can cause dangerous effects on the heart. So aspiration prior to injection is theoretically good.
You would be interested to know that the EpiPen provides NO ability for aspiration as it is an auto injection system.

Bottom line: Aspiration does not eliminate inadvertent intravenous injection. The needle can be intravenous and get a negative aspiration - yes it can. The needle may not be intravenous initially but the act of aspiration moves the needle slightly so that it becomes intravenous during injection.

How common is the risk of inadvertent injection?

A rather false cause rebuttal. It is about risk reduction. Epipens are for emergency situations, for mostly untrained people. Quite different from a controlled medical setting, for those who are meant to be skilled and knowledgeable. Denmark, Singapore and China see avoidable risk minimization as a no brainer and best practice. And the German experts found no evidence asserting or documenting the risk comparisons for the downgrading to non-aspirations. I suggest the govt is pandering to people who fear needles generally, to make the experience 'better' , against those who know there is no peer reviewed evidence for medical 'short cuts'.
I would hate risk 'needle stick injury' propped in there, for a calm patient that specifically requests professional delivery. Especially as it is known that leakages are proven in rats? to damage the heart.

Another difference in the last 20 years or so, is the sizable number of people doing weight lifting, extreme exercise / body sculpting, and some taking steroi_s. Also people doing repetitive gaming/phone/keyboard work. Muscles need blood supply. If my doctor/chemist does not aspirate - I am going elsewhere.

I know one doctor who trots out a ground glass syringe intracardiac injection with 5 inch needle, so that they see the modern needle is nothing to worry about.