General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[wandering_fred]

We also don't know what impact COVID has had on life expectancy. In particular, if someone develops long COVID will that shave years off their life? Does it impact their useful life (i.e. the number of years they are living where their quality of life is deemed acceptable). It will likely be many years before that is known.

-RooFlyer88

Some (USA?) life insurance companies are already reporting changes (increases) in the expected numbers in the "middle years" for their policy holders. There is speculation about increased cardiac issues in younger people.
To claim to know what that actually means would be wandering
Fred

 

[Gavros333]

Some (USA?) life insurance companies are already reporting changes (increases) in the expected numbers in the "middle years" for their policy holders. There is speculation about increased cardiac issues in younger people.
To claim to know what that actually means would be wandering
Fred

Cardiac issues from COVID infection or from the mRNA vaccines in younger people? Having had the Pfizer vaccine myself and knowing two people personally with myocarditis following vaccination, it's got me thinking.

 

[drron]

Some (USA?) life insurance companies are already reporting changes (increases) in the expected numbers in the "middle years" for their policy holders. There is speculation about increased cardiac issues in younger people.
To claim to know what that actually means would be wandering
Fred

But here is a rep[ort on the rising incidence of heart disease in the USA from 2017.

Heart Disease: Why It's Increasing in the United States

Experts say the country needs to reverse trends like obesity and diabetes, or heart disease will continue to kill us and bankrupt our healthcare system.

www.healthline.com

And from 2019 and Harvard. 4-10% of heart attacks are in men below age 45.

Premature Heart Disease - Harvard Health Publishing - Harvard Health

Coronary artery disease is the biggest cause of heart attacks in younger men, but other causes include defective arteries, clot disorders, and drug abuse. ...

www.health.harvard.edu

It also goes on to a research paper where young males had died of suicide ,drugs or trauma. Atherosclerosis was found in males as young as 15 and 2% of the young males had actual Coronary Artery disease.

They also found that another risk factor was low birth rate. So the cause of the disease is not covid and especially not the vaccines.

However it has been known for 90 years that inflammation will increase the risk of acute complications in those with established vascular disease. It is especially true of influenza and I have linked papers on that previously.
So it is more likely that Covid itself and not the vaccines that can bring on a heart attack in those individuals who already have underlying disease.
Correlation does not mean causation.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Cardiac issues from COVID infection or from the mRNA vaccines in younger people? Having had the Pfizer vaccine myself and knowing two people personally with myocarditis following vaccination, it's got me thinking.

It is likely that complications from the vaccine and decreased vaccine efficacy have everything to do with the 2nd dose of the Pfizer vaccine being given out mere weeks after the first one. If the commonwealth treated vaccination as a race and was handing out vaccines early last year, there wouldn't be this push for everyone to become "fully vaccinated," in a few weeks. I should know, I got my first jab of AZ back in April and because I got it so early I had the luxury of waiting 12 weeks to get the second dose.

Sources: Epidemiology of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA vaccines in Ontario, Canada: by vaccine product, schedule and interval

Spacing Pfizer COVID shots boosts antibody levels in long-term study

A longer gap between doses of Pfizer's (PFE.N) COVID-19 vaccine leads to higher overall antibody levels than a shorter gap, a British study found on Friday, but antibody levels are not sustained for long after the first dose.

www.reuters.com

 

[Gavros333]

It is likely that complications from the vaccine and decreased vaccine efficacy have everything to do with the 2nd dose of the Pfizer vaccine being given out mere weeks after the first one. If the commonwealth treated vaccination as a race and was handing out vaccines early last year, there wouldn't be this push for everyone to become "fully vaccinated," in a few weeks. I should know, I got my first jab of AZ back in April and because I got it so early I had the luxury of waiting 12 weeks to get the second dose.

Sources: Epidemiology of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA vaccines in Ontario, Canada: by vaccine product, schedule and interval

Spacing Pfizer COVID shots boosts antibody levels in long-term study

A longer gap between doses of Pfizer's (PFE.N) COVID-19 vaccine leads to higher overall antibody levels than a shorter gap, a British study found on Friday, but antibody levels are not sustained for long after the first dose.

www.reuters.com

Very interesting and makes sense. I waited 8 weeks between my Pfizer doses as like you, I wasn't in a rush and no issues whatsoever.

Waiting the full 6 months for the booster, again the WA government has mandated it 3 months after the last dose. Makes you wonder if they're following the best health advice or playing politics!?

 

[mviy]

I had my first AZ in June and still waited the full 12 weeks. Waited just over 3 months before my 3rd dose though and may not even wait a further 3 months before my 4th.

Waiting longer between doses is only better if you don’t get exposed. Having had a booster after 3 months and getting exposed a few weeks later is far better than only having had 2 doses at that point.

 

[drron]

The UK Guardian not holding back on the treatment of the AZ vaccine by "experts".

Harm to AstraZeneca jab’s reputation ‘probably killed thousands’

Scientist who worked on jab criticises ‘bad behaviour’ by scientists and politicians who damaged reputation of Covid vaccine

www.theguardian.com

And Peter Collignon having a go at Australia's "Pfiver experts".

 

[Must...Fly!]

No remorse, just burying themselves in ozsage propaganda

 

[rogerkambah]

The UK Guardian not holding back on the treatment of the AZ vaccine by "experts".

Harm to AstraZeneca jab’s reputation ‘probably killed thousands’

Scientist who worked on jab criticises ‘bad behaviour’ by scientists and politicians who damaged reputation of Covid vaccine

www.theguardian.com

And Peter Collignon having a go at Australia's "Pfiver experts".
View attachment 270983

Agreed, the media here did a wonderful job of killing AZ vax. Then when the stats don't agree with their position, they just move on.

 

[drron]

If you have had covid the evidence is becoming less clear that you need a booster. Here is a study from the Cleveland clinic of their staff. 8000 had had covid but unvaccinated and ~ 32000 who had been vaccinated but not infected. A booster dose given to each group and the risk of getting a breakthrough or reinfection was reduced by very similiar amounts.
However previously infected individuals who were given a second vaccine dose actually had an increase in risk of reinfection over those that received just one dose.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Vaccine Boosting in Persons Already Protected by Natural or Vaccine-Induced Immunity

Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether boosting healthcare personnel, already reasonably protected by prior infection or vaccination, with a vaccine developed for an earlier variant of COVID-19 protects against the Omicron variant. Methods Employees of Cleveland Clinic who...

www.medrxiv.org

Bottom line.

Among 39 766 Cleveland Clinic employees already protected by prior infection or vaccination, vaccine boosting after 6 months was associated with significantly lower risk of COVID-19. After COVID-19 infection, there was no advantage to more than one dose of vaccine.

And the Danes have released an update on the household contacts study. I have previously posted the original report of infections in close household contacts of Omicron cases.Basically the risk if triple vaxxed was an SAR of 25, unvaccinated 29 and 2 doses 32.

Danish researchers investigate Omicron transmission in Danish households

The study found an increased transmission for unvaccinated individuals and a reduced transmission for booster-vaccinated individuals, compared to fully vaccinated individuals.

en.ssi.dk

What is surprising the least increase in risk is in the unvaccinated,the greatest in those triple vaxxed when comparing Delta as the index case or Omicron. So although there is still a slight difference between unvaccinated to triple vaxxed with Omicron that is way less than it was with Delta.

Comparing households infected with the Omicron to Delta VOC, there was a significant higher transmission among fully vaccinated and booster-vaccinated indviduals [among unvaccinated individuals, OR=1,17 (95 %-CI: 0,99-1,38); among fully vaccinated individuals, OR=2,61 (95 %-CI: 2,34-2,90); among booster-vaccinated individuals, OR=3,66 (95 %-CI: 2,65-5,05)]

 

[ethernet]

My observation is that AZ had about the same bad luck risk profile as mRNA brands, only the latter had a stronger PR campaign, and so far 'no adverse effects' has not been investigated anywhere near hard enough. Meanwhile the Pill, and Heparin reactions go unreported/ non newsworthy.
Germany just mandated 'Aspiration'. Looking at Israel data, over 60yo people need to be grouped up when discussing things. For the rest, living with omicron seems fine, and we should not worry about the unvaccinated by choice, other than slap them with a bill, like in Singapore.

Nobody is investing in boosters, because omicron is mild, and they dont think a new strain will push omicron out, and start killing youthful people like the original outbreak. UK is decreeing all over, rover. At this stage, capability to handle the next outbreak, needs attention. It is wrong to assume coronavirus and ACE2 will be the main issue. Some wet markets have closed, but plenty of bush and farmed meats are still trading, bird flu and swine fever. The possibilities abound.

 

[drron]

There are some people who think it is not so much that Omicron is less severe but that cellular immunity is better than we thought. Even the mRNA vaccines do produce a cellular immunity that is longer lasting than the antibody response. Here is a paper on the Moderna cellular response.

Moderna COVID-19 vaccine generates long-lasting immune memory

People who received low doses of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine had strong immune memories of the virus six months after being fully vaccinated.

www.nih.gov

What is more interesting is that although the antibodies produced by vaccination or previous variant infection have much reduced effect against Omicron the cellular immunity is much more effective against Omicron. 80% of the immune cells even to the original variant will react to Omicron.

Current COVID-19 vaccines induce robust cellular immunity against Omicron variant, researchers demonstrate

On January 11, the United States reported a record-breaking 1.35 million new COVID-19 infections, shattering the previous record set just eight days before. The sky-high case rate—roughly four times higher than numbers of daily infections seen last January—are a testament to the transmissibility...

medicalxpress.com

But again especially with a booster mix and match produces better results. This is a report from the USA and there having a J&J booster after 2 mRNA shots is better than a third mRNA jab.

Mix-and-match of COVID-19 vaccine boosters found to be safe and effective

In adults who had previously received a full regimen of a COVID-19 vaccine approved or authorized by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), an additional dose of any of these COVID-19 vaccines was safe and prompted an immune response, according to study findings published Jan. 26 in The New...

www.news-medical.net

 

[drron]

So the CDC has now advised an 8 week gap between the first and second mRNA doses.

CDC changes guidance and advises longer interval between vaccine doses

Agency advises eight-week interval between first and second shots after research suggests longer wait can provide better protection

www.theguardian.com

 

[mviy]

So the CDC has now advised an 8 week gap between the first and second mRNA doses.

CDC changes guidance and advises longer interval between vaccine doses

Agency advises eight-week interval between first and second shots after research suggests longer wait can provide better protection

www.theguardian.com

A bit late for that advice, but better late than never, I guess.

I wonder what the recommended gap between 3rd and 4th will be? I’m now at about 8 weeks since my 3rd COVID vaccination.

 

[drron]

The Tasmanian Government is being blasted by the opposition and media for it's slow roll out of the vaccine for 5 - 11 year olds. Hoever the figures show it is only second to the AST and 7% more than the next best State SA.

 

[Lynda2475]

it's slow roll out of the vaccine for 5 - 11 year olds.

What is slow about any of the states rollouts for 5-11 yos? Plenty of vaccine is available, its up to the parents to get off their butt and make a booking with their GP or a local pharmac_ or take their kid to a walk in state hub.

If we didn't have sufficient vaccine there could be government blame, but from what I can see the snails pace take up for 12-15 in NSW (in 3.5 months only increased by 1%) and slowing pace for 5-11s is solely due to people not opting in, not lack of access.

 

[mviy]

The government could mandate the vaccine for kids, but considering unvaccinated kids are highly unlikely to end up in hospital unless they are immunocompromised it wouldn’t make sense to do so.

Withholding family tax benefits if kids are not vaccinated would be a federal issue not a state one.

The state governments could do popup clinics at schools and other places kids tend to congregate, but that’s probably about it.

 

[Pushka]

The government could mandate the vaccine for kids, but considering unvaccinated kids are highly unlikely to end up in hospital unless they are immunocompromised it wouldn’t make sense to do so.

Withholding family tax benefits if kids are not vaccinated would be a federal issue not a state one.

The state governments could do popup clinics at schools and other places kids tend to congregate, but that’s probably about it.

SA is having a party vaccination day today. Entertainment and giveaways. SIL who works at a Vax hub said things were slowing down significantly. Supply is not an issue for anyone.

 

[mviy]

If they are not going to mandate it, I see no reason to rush off and try to get my overseas booster registered or have another jab. I'll probably have a jab closer to winter and a possible overseas trip.

I agree if supply is not an issue. If they are not going to mandate it then making it as easy as possible to get vaccinated i.e. doing popup clinics where people are going to go anyway e.g. school, work, major public transport stops etc. is what can be done.

 

[Lynda2475]

making it as easy as possible to get vaccinated

I think its already pretty easy access there are state hubs in central locations, pharmacies in every suburb and GPs (which is the hardest to use channel as you need an appointment). Pop-ups unnecessary at this stage where majority of people are already vaccinated.