General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Lynda2475]

IF I "knew", I could make a more informed judgment about future boosters and travel arrangements

If you want to know your GP should be able to order antibody testing from a pathology lab, you will need to get blood drawn. Alternatively Histopath will do a Rapid PCR plus Blood Antibody for $120 at the airport.

Where do you draw the line on the number of boosters you will take?

Going forward one per annum same as flu shot.

 

[JohnM]

your going to get it one way or another

I have no idea if I have had "it"…...nor does a significant portion of the population.
IF I "knew", I could make a more informed judgment about future boosters and travel arrangements

It would be interesting to know just what proportion of people get infected and are completely asymptomatic. My gut feeling is that it would be very few.

I have no more than common cold symptoms - but I definitely know that I have something and the RAT confirmed that it's Covid.

 

[N860CR]

It would be interesting to know just what proportion of people get infected and are completely asymptomatic. My gut feeling is that it would be very few.

I have no more than common cold symptoms - but I definitely know that I have something and the RAT confirmed that it's Covid.

For each person who puts some thought into it, 10 will just ignore it. I’ve had “covid symptoms” on countless occasions over the last 2 years (the constant wearing of masks leads to sore throats) however only tested positive for covid once. While the covid-lovers are loud, I’d imagine plenty would either ignore symptoms or just assume it’s a mild cold.

Despite having an abysmally low vaccination rate, South Africa estimates over 80% of adults have immunity through previous infection (and that would explain the extreme low level of the virus in the country now). The Congo is another good example. Less than 1% of the population vaccinated but bodies aren’t piling up on the street.

The WHO has said many times that cases numbers are underestimated 10 fold, and id say that’s probably a fair assessment.

 

[Pushka]

It would be interesting to know just what proportion of people get infected and are completely asymptomatic. My gut feeling is that it would be very few.

I have no more than common cold symptoms - but I definitely know that I have something and the RAT confirmed that it's Covid.

Agree. Everyone I know who had it, knew they had some kind of infection. All very different symptoms and all boosted.

 

[drron]

You can't compare the flu vaccine to the covid vaccines. The flu vaccine is a different vaccine every year based on what variants were common in the opposite hemisphere's winter.
The authorities are trying to get us take the same vaccine for the 4th time in less than 18 months. And if the second booster is like the previous shots the efficacy of that will last less than the first booster,

 

[Oneworldplus2]

The Congo is another good example. Less than 1% of the population vaccinated but bodies aren’t piling up on the street

I just googled the average age in the Congo, 19. Might have something to do with it? Are we allowed to mention the drug beginning with i? Do they take i in the Congo?

From what I've read, the younger you are, covid presents less of a risk to you. But from my personal experiences, that's a maybe.

I'm under 50
Relatively healthy
Had 3 shots
More than likely had Omicron back in February this year
Not planning on getting another shot
For me, covid is over, gone, finished.

I have always held the opinion that 4 - 6 weeks after your second shot, you should get Covid-19 (Omicron) on purpose and be done with it. Not live in fear. Unless the whole population gets N95 masks properly fitted, it won't stop. Herd immunity through natural immunity is probably the only way forward. Omicron is so infectious, it can't be stopped, maybe putting your mask back on in between bites will stop it

Everyone l work with is slowly getting covid (aged 30 - 65), sore throat, some muslce aches, headaches, shortness of breath, but in about 3 to 4 days on average, back to normal. Surprisingly, my work colleagues under 40 had more symptoms that the older guys (60 plus).

Anyways, just some rambling from me....

 

[drron]

And a recent editorial in the NEJM about covid booster doses and whether they are really needed.
A call to get rid of the zero mild disease policy currently in effect for the covid vaccines.

It is now incumbent on the CDC to determine who most benefits from booster dosing and to educate the public about the limits of mucosal vaccines. Otherwise, a zero-tolerance strategy for mild or asymptomatic infection, which can be implemented only with frequent booster doses, will continue to mislead the public about what Covid-19 vaccines can and cannot do.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2203329#.Yl3bvc7xM9Q.twitter

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Just heard this - Delta, Alaska and United will no longer require masks on flights.

 

[Lynda2475]

You can't compare the flu vaccine to the covid vaccines. The flu vaccine is a different vaccine every year based on what variants were common in the opposite hemisphere's winter.
The authorities are trying to get us take the same vaccine for the 4th time in less than 18 months. And if the second booster is like the previous shots the efficacy of that will last less than the first booster,

And they are supposed to tweak the Covid vaccines for new variants too. Majority of the population aren't currently eligible for a 4th dose, I would expect by the time the go ahead is given we wont be getting same old Alpha vaccine but one that has been tweaked for what is actually circulating i.e. omicron.

Flu is also mild for most young people, yet they invest in tweaking each year. The MRNA have short timeframe to tweak so orders should be modified for updated versions.

 

[OATEK]

And they are supposed to tweak the Covid vaccines for new variants too. Majority of the population aren't currently eligible for a 4th dose, I would expect by the time the go ahead is given we wont be getting same old Alpha vaccine but one that has been tweaked for what is actually circulating i.e. omicron.

Flu is also mild for most young people, yet they invest in tweaking each year. The MRNA have short timeframe to tweak so orders should be modified for updated versions.

I am not sure they will be able to tweek annual covid shots so easily, as they haven't yet AFAIK managed to tweek for the variants since the main vaccines were first introduced last year.

 

[drron]

And they are supposed to tweak the Covid vaccines for new variants too. Majority of the population aren't currently eligible for a 4th dose, I would expect by the time the go ahead is given we wont be getting same old Alpha vaccine but one that has been tweaked for what is actually circulating i.e. omicron.

Flu is also mild for most young people, yet they invest in tweaking each year. The MRNA have short timeframe to tweak so orders should be modified for updated versions.

Well despite saying they could tweak for new variants with the mRNA vaccines they haven't been able to put out a Delta variant yet let alone for Omicron. Not that a new vaccine is needed for Omicron. The latest UK figures show that for cases and hospitalisations the Unvaccinated over 80s to better than triple vaxed but yes worse with mortality though still much better than those having 1 or 2 doses.

The UK releases a weekly update of cases,hospitalisations and mortality by vaccination status. this is the update for week 13 of 2022 released on 31/3.
file:///C:/Users/rondo/Downloads/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-13.pdf

These figures are for the over 80s ie the ones for whom vaccination is essential.

Unvaccinated. 1 or 2 doses. Triple vaxxed.
4.3% 4% 91.5%
Cases 1.7% 4.8% 93.5%
Hospital. 1.7% 15.3% 83%
Deaths 7% 15% 78%

And you are very wrong on influenza. Quite often it is more severe in the younger and the older populations. The death rate is often highest in those under 5. And as I have said I have had to watch a 24 year old pregnant woman die from Influenza.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

If l remember correctly, Albert Bourla said Pfizer is currently working on a vaccine that will work on all Covid variants.

 

[DC3]

... And you are very wrong on influenza. Quite often it is more severe in the younger and the older populations. The death rate is often highest in those under 5. And as I have said I have had to watch a 24 year old pregnant woman die from Influenza.

Yes, but on AFF we don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Dr Ron - question

I have heard that as covid mutates, it becomes less and less severe and more contagious.
Omicron is certainly less dangerous than Delta yet more contagious.
Will we get to a point in the next 3 or 4 variants where Covid will be more contagious, but very very weak and nothing to worry about?

 

[Lynda2475]

And you are very wrong on influenza

I don't think so, I said mild for most and I stand by it. We have never been forced into lockdown and to WFH for Flu; and again we don't see widespread hospitalisations for flu in younger people.

Knowing of one younger person who died from Influenza doesn't make it is a common occurrence. There will always been some people with underlying conditions (including advanced age) who are more susceptible to various viruses.

There is no reason not to tweak the covid vaccines for variants, and if a tweaked version is available then we should be able to choose to get it, just like we can choose (or not) to get a flu vax every year.

 

[drron]

I don't think so, I said mild for most and I stand by it. We have never been forced into lockdown and to WFH for Flu; and again we don't see widespread hospitalisations for flu in younger people.

Knowing of one younger person who died from Influenza doesn't make it is a common occurrence. There will always been some people with underlying conditions (including advanced age) who are more susceptible to various viruses.

There is no reason not to tweak the covid vaccines for variants, and if a tweaked version is available then we should be able to choose to get it, just like we can choose (or not) to get a flu vax every year.

You are wrong. It is just as deadly for the under 5's as the over 70s.
Remember in 2017 I was in charge of a flu ward in a major hospital. We had several younger patients, much worse than covid in under 40s.
And in 2009 and 2017 we certainly had lockdowns of aged c are facilities. But of course back then pandemic plans didn't call for general lockdowns but for protecting the vulnerable.

And although there is apparently no reason we shouldn't tweak the vaccines for variants despite several promises none have been released.

@Oneworldplus2 yes it often is the way a pandemic ends by mutations being more infectious but less deadly. It is certainly how the 1918 pandemic ended. however no guarantee that a new variant will be less deadly. Certainly likely to be more infectious as that is how it replaces the old variant.

 

[DC3]

The posting of apparent mis-information, upthread, seems not to be in breach of AFF rules. Why can't we just stick to the facts, especially relating to COVID?

 

[Lynda2475]

You are wrong. It is just as deadly for the under 5's as the over 70s.

And you are arguing a point i didn't make. I said Flu is mild for MOST younger people (i never specifically called out infants, under 5s do not constitute most younger people).

However you are arguing about under 5 mortality rate being same as over 70s for Flu with no reference to what % of under 5s (or younger people as a whole) end up hospitalised with Flu? Even in a bad year like 2017 MOST (as in majority of) younger people who go the flu did not end up seriously ill nor in hospital so again I stand by my assertion.

Your can continue to present arguments for a point I didn't make, but that doesn't make my assertion wrong.

Covid vaccines should be modified for the variants actually still circulating, otherwise they server no ongoing purpose. AZ, Pfizer and Moderna have all claimed they can produce variant specific vaccines, those who are doing the purchasing (aka governments) should be holding them to deliver these.

Its clear you dont see any value, you can choose not to get boosted. Whereas when variant tweaked boosters become available I will certainly get one.

 

[andye]

Not just children with influenza, pregnant women too. In 2009 64 such women were admitted to ICU, 44 of whom required ventilation, 9 had ECMO and 7 died.

Critical illness due to 2009 A/H1N1 influenza in pregnant and postpartum women: population based cohort study

Objective To describe the epidemiology of 2009 A/H1N1 influenza in critically ill pregnant women. Design Population based cohort study. Setting All intensive care units in Australia and New Zealand. Participants All women with 2009 H1N1 influenza who were pregnant or recently post partum and...

www.bmj.com

No-one would have considered Covid-type restrictions as being a tolerable public health measure then but if repeated now, I'm sure there would be voices calling for them

 

[Lynda2475]

but if repeated now, I'm sure there would be voices calling for them

How sad, we need to move on from this way of thinking, lockdowns do more long term harm to more people than the good for the handful they protect in the short term.