General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Must...Fly!]

Maybe trying to screw Pfizer down on price…

An interview with a Pfizer board member I was listening to seemed to indicate even he was sceptical of boosters for the wider populace due to B and T cell memory. For over 65s a different story.

 

[Lynda2475]

The WHO's motivation for not wanting wealthy countries to get boosters, isnt because there isnt a health benefit but because they want those doses donated to pooer nations who have large portion of their populations yet to be vaccinated. Same logic they used to try and dissuade them from vaccinating teens.

The WHO can be just as political as any government.

Given cost of Covid vaccine programs, it is likely once first round targets are reached, boosters will only be free or subsidised for certain population segments and others wanting them will need to pay. Covid jab is only free vaccine ive had as an adult, all the other boosters and travel vaccines have had to be paid for even annual flu vax (either by me or employer).

People wanting a booster will find a way to buy one. All youd need is a blood test showing depleted antibody count to have medical cause for access, then pay up.

 

[jakeseven7]

An interview with a Pfizer board member I was listening to seemed to indicate even he was sceptical of boosters for the wider populace due to B and T cell memory. For over 65s a different story.

Which is potentially why AZ is proving to be more effective in the long run - there’s some more studies coming on T cell memory as well.

 

[Lynda2475]

UK are already giving mrna boosters to people whose first two doses were AZ.

 

[Must...Fly!]

UK are already giving mrna boosters to people whose first two doses were AZ.

Get over it, you have no idea and neither does anyone else of the long term protection afforded by any of these vaccines.

 

[Lynda2475]

Get over it, you have no idea and neither does anyone else of the long term protection afforded by any of these vaccines

Exactly, so those claiming AZ recipients have better long term protection here have no long term evidence to support that position given not at 12 month mark, let alone several years.

However if there is no additional health risks to having a booster at 6-9 months as is happening in UK, Israel, Indonesia and some parts of the USA, there is no harm is getting a booster and likely huge benefit if the boosters are tweaked for newer variants.

If you dont want a booster when available you can choose not to get one. But you are naive to think many others wont proactively be seeking them out.

A blood test to determine actual booster need is logical, over just assuming certain age groups.

 

[drron]

UK are already giving mrna boosters to people whose first two doses were AZ.

But you do realise that if the FDA has not given a decision yet it means that officially in the USA and with the WHO that a booster with Pfizer is not officially approved.

 

[Lynda2475]

Pfizer vaccine is FDA approved, the emmergency use provision has been replaced by full approval for 12 and over.

The FDA have also given recommendation for boosters for "for people aged 65 and older and those at high risk of severe COVID-19" which includes "health care workers, first responders and people likely to be exposed to the virus at work", so plenty of under 65s will be eligible when the advice is approved (and some medical workers already been given access, and have not been prosecutedby FDA for doing so).

With high circulating virus levels, it wont be that hard to meet the "risk of exposure at work" qualifier. And if hospitalisations in the fully vaccinated start to rise over winter that advice will change again to recommend booster access to more people.

WhO iendorsement is not required for a government to initiate a booster program as evidenced by UK and Israel, and in Indonesia they have been giving medical staff a booster of Pfizer or Moderna because the WHO approved sinopharm vaccines used for first 2 doses had pitiful effectiveness against Delta and many were dying from covid despite being fully vaccinated with Chinese developed vaccines.

 

[JB expat]

US panel backs COVID-19 boosters only for seniors, high-risk

An influential federal advisory panel has overwhelmingly rejected a plan to give Pfizer booster shots against COVID-19 to most Americans, but it endorsed the extra doses for those who are 65 or older or run a high risk of severe disease.

apnews.com

Boosters may not be a fait-accompli

I have to wonder how much of this is based on cost versus what is recommended. The USA has taken the unusual step of making the initial vaccination (2 doses) "free" - it doesn't surprise me that this will not continue. Nothing stops Americans from getting a booster by paying out of their own pocket - it will be interesting to see what the global medical recommendation is (those that don't take into account the cost, just the benefits).

 

[Quickstatus]

double blind studies of masks

Evidence based medicine is the practice of medicine based on evidence from research, practice and/or observation

There are a lot of areas of medicine where double blind studies do not exist.
One is the prescribing of medicines to breast feeding mothers and its effect on newborn babies. Who in their right mind would volunteer their newborn to some experiment. Yet everyday women are prescribed all sorts of medicines while they are breastfeeding without those medicines ever been tested on newborns.

The closest to masks in terms of public health is the wearing of seatbelts. I dont believe there has ever been a double blind study into the effectiveness of seatbelts preventing death or serious injury. It would never pass the Ethics committee stage. The evidence came from observations of crashes where seatbelts were or were not used.

Imagine designing a DB study. Easy to do. 1000 subjects of comparable age. 500 into seatbelt group and 500 into placebo seatbelt group - where the seatbelt is applied but hidden away is the fact that it is not anchored to the car frame. Then launch the cars at 100kmh into a concrete barrier. They have to use crash test dummies to substitute for humans because what person would want to volunteer for that study and be recompensed with a cup of tea/ poppa drink or biscuit afterwards

I would be very much against mandated wearing of a mask come mid next year

Not even if it saves lives?. There are often personal difficulties with wearing masks, or getting a vaccine, or for that matter being subject to a lockdown. There are many facets to the Covid pandemic and a lot of the issues are not mutually exclusive. Personal autonomy has been or maybe it still is the foundation healthcare and the morality and ethics of autonomy in the context of a pandemic is becoming the next big discussion.

 

[Pushka]

Evidence based medicine is the practice of medicine based on evidence from research, practice and/or observation

There are a lot of areas of medicine where double blind studies do not exist.
One is the prescribing of medicines to breast feeding mothers and its effect on newborn babies. Who in their right mind would volunteer their newborn to some experiment. Yet everyday women are prescribed all sorts of medicines while they are breastfeeding without those medicines ever been tested on newborns.

The closest to masks in terms of public health is the wearing of seatbelts. I dont believe there has ever been a double blind study into the effectiveness of seatbelts preventing death or serious injury. It would never pass the Ethics committee stage. The evidence came from observations of crashes where seatbelts were or were not used.

Imagine designing a DB study. Easy to do. 1000 subjects of comparable age. 500 into seatbelt group and 500 into placebo seatbelt group - where the seatbelt is applied but hidden away is the fact that it is not anchored to the car frame. Then launch the cars at 100kmh into a concrete barrier. They have to use crash test dummies to substitute for humans because what person would want to volunteer for that study and be recompensed with a cup of tea/ poppa drink or biscuit afterwards


Not even if it saves lives?. There are often personal difficulties with wearing masks, or getting a vaccine, or for that matter being subject to a lockdown. There are many facets to the Covid pandemic and a lot of the issues are not mutually exclusive. Personal autonomy has been or maybe it still is the foundation healthcare and the morality and ethics of autonomy in the context of a pandemic is becoming the next big discussion.

If people are not vaccinated then why is it encumbent on others to protect them?

 

[Quickstatus]

If people are not vaccinated then why is it encumbent on others to protect them?

Masks effective against flu for which the vaccine is less effective? which was the comment by @drron

 

[Pom-DownUnder]

Masks effective against flu for which the vaccine is less effective? which was the comment by @drron

Feels like a dodge.

They are really good vs death / hospitlisation people are still going to get it, still going to spread it the evil eye is being put on the unvaccinated because politicians are wanting to make sure their scape goats are tied down good and tight.

noteworthy today after the national cabinet yesterday Andrew Barr changed his wording, where previously the wording was that the vaccines were providing excellent protection against Hospitilsation and death .... today the phrasing was changed to protection against ICU admission and death.

 

[Pushka]

Masks effective against flu for which the vaccine is less effective? which was the comment by @drron

I would not expect others to wear a mask to protect me unless required by their profession. If I felt concerned then I would wear a mask for my protection. If I had a respiratory infection then I would wear one if necessary.

 

[Quickstatus]

My point is either we believe masks work as a community health measure or not.
So if masks are valid for a respiratory infection covid why not for influenza - especially in winter?
Each year except during the covid pandemic influenza kills hundreds of people a year, and contribute to annual pressure on ICU beds in winter.
the dramatic drop in influenza cases has been attributed in part to the at least some of the CovidSafe measures
Many are happy to mandate Covid vaccinations - essentially saying that people other than themselves should also be mandated to have a vaccine. Why not also for masks in winter against influenza?. Masks + Flu Vax alone (perhaps not needing the social distancing) could possibly reduce the Flu hospitalisations and deaths each winter and reduce the pressure on winter hospital beds and cost to the community.

Think community health measure rather than personal health measure. Vaccinations work when most people are vaccinated. Masks likely also work when most wear a mask. Viruses are insiduous - wearing a mask when feeling concerned is not necessarily good protection. Good protection occurs when protected when least concerned. As with Covid you can be completely asymptomatic of influenza and still spread the virus

 

[Pushka]

So if masks are valid for a respiratory infection covid why not for influenza - especially in winter?

They might work. I’ve not bothered with the science because it’s pointless when they are mandatory. But while people were by and large, supportive of masks for Covid this will not translate for support in general use. Masks rob people of normal social interactions. I’ve seen them lying on tables while people eat. There is a limit on how we deal with illness within society.

 

[mviy]

It's a fact that many do not use masks correctly. If you touch the mask in the wrong place even momentarily you should dispose of it and use a fresh one, but very few people do that. Many people fiddle with their masks. You also shouldn't repeatedly use the same mask without cleaning it (if reusable) or replacing it with another if single use.

I've heard that medical staff in hospitals can face disciplinary action or worse for not using protective equipment like masks correctly. They are trained to use this protective equipment correctly, but not the general community.

Many people in the community don't wear masks properly e.g. have it only covering the mouth not the nose or even covering neither.

Once the population is vaccinated I see little point to wearing masks.

My friends in the UK tell me that mask use there is dropping off more and more over time.

 

[ethernet]

As a somewhat older person (though reasonably fit) I have found that BMI values are incapable of really evaluating the underlying state of the body. Try US Navy calculator which attempts to correct for muscle mass (versus FAT). I go from about BMI 30 to about 25 under the navy protocols.....

As far as the vaccine discussions go, there are a number of issues.
1. Underlying physical health and in particular your vitamin D levels. Anecdotal reporting indicates high/normal levels limits serious illness. Note: NOT prevention.
2. I wish the pharmaceutical industry regulators would apply the same evaluation standards which are being practiced with the vaccine rollout to the existing pharmaceuticals which seem to limit serious infection.
Most interesting comment in the alternative sites may be: Where are the double blind studies for masks? Note: In high density situations (ie public transport) masks are likely somewhat functional.
3. One cannot reasonably expect pharmaceutical companies (ie created to make a PROFIT) to create and evaluate studies of drugs which will not generate revenue.... Note: What companies fund the disease research centers?

The above requires far too much wandering
Fred

Obesity is a disease.

This video is over the place, but getting back to basics - yet for Covid, there is silence.
It should be take the vaccine - and hey, healthy living.

 

[Quickstatus]

Once the population is vaccinated I see little point to wearing masks.

Not for influenza despite vaccinations

 

[Pom-DownUnder]

Not for influenza despite vaccinations

anyone concerned about getting the flu is welcome to wear one, I wont be doing so.