General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[antycbr]

We never used to wear masks in Australia if we had the flu or a cold, though if you were very sick you probably wouldn't be going out either.

All the vulnerable have had plenty of time to get vaccinated. Now that the AZ gap between doses has been cut to 6 weeks there's even less excuse for that group.

I don't see why I should have to continue to wear a mask. Those who choose not to be vaccinated should be allowed to face the consequences of those actions. We have to learn to live with COVID, not live in perpetual fear of catching it.

It's actually pretty dangerous for those who wear glasses wearing a mask on the streets as glasses fog up impairing vision.

I expect I will wear masks at the airport and on planes, but only because it will be mandated despite the false advertising from QANTAS indicating that masks won't be required on planes when we reopen. As soon as the mandate is removed I'll stop wearing them.

This is the overall conversation of moving Covid responses from being community wide back to personal accountability and responsibility.

 

[Lynda2475]

I think 5-11 year olds who are non-vaccinated, should wear a mask at school whenever the virus is circulating widely i.e. right now.

My sister (a teacher) is currently in 14 day iso after multiple children (aged 6, 9 and 11) came to school infected last week despite not having parents who were essential workers. Those 3 kids have infected other children, who have likely infected their families.

All the staff who have been working are double jabbed, but those 12 staff are now in iso are are the 30 or so other kids who genuinely needed to be at school because their parents are health and emergency workers. Them being in iso means their parents are now away from critical the workforce too.

Schools need the authority to refuse to have kids onsite during lock-down whose parents aren't essential workers and ask that kids who do attend wear a mask. If the teachers have to suffer in a mask all day, only fair to insist the non-vaccinated kids do the same.

 

[mviy]

Well at some point as vaccination rates increase we need to shift from 14 days iso to only requiring essential workers to isolate until they get a negative test and then to only requiring them to isolate if the test comes back positive, and eventually go even further.

 

[Lynda2475]

Well at some point as vaccination rates increase we need to shift from 14 days iso to only requiring essential workers to isolate until they get a negative test and then to only requiring them to isolate if the test comes back positive, and eventually go even further.

My sister went and got a test on the way home from school on the day the children were removed from class (Thursday), and again on Saturday when advised of further spread from those kids. Both negative but still stuck as home until NSW health clear her on Day 14 after a day 12 test.

Interview from NSW health didn't happen until Saturday (so they are still happening no matter what some media say), despite fact that she checks in at the school any day she attends in person, said it sounded like the interviewer was not a local. She was surprised time was wasted on asking her which gender she was born and which she identified with, as if that would make any difference wrt contract tracing, political correctness gone mad.

 

[Pushka]

For me it can't stop soon enough. Masks make me feel sick and take away much of the enjoyment of being out in the fresh air and being with people.

I've had one vaccine dose and if they took away the threat of fines and didn't enforce mask wearing I would never put one on again.

We in SA have no chance of ditching the masks any time soon. We've had no community transmission in SA for over 7 weeks now but since then, masks have been compulsory indoors, and outside where you can't socially distance. Of course that luck can change in a nanosecond. However while everyone is extremely compliant, I wonder for how much longer. Of course once our Vax hit 80% - December sometime, mask wearing will be appropriate as the numbers rise, but that's a long time away. Today is a big day with kids in their year 11 and 12 given priority and can now just walk up and be vaccinated. And of course those recalcitrant 60 pluses can get Pfizer.

 

[JB expat]

I think 5-11 year olds who are non-vaccinated, should wear a mask at school whenever the virus is circulating widely i.e. right now.

My sister (a teacher) is currently in 14 day iso after multiple children (aged 6, 9 and 11) came to school infected last week despite not having parents who were essential workers. Those 3 kids have infected other children, who have likely infected their families.

All the staff who have been working are double jabbed, but those 12 staff are now in iso are are the 30 or so other kids who genuinely needed to be at school because their parents are health and emergency workers. Them being in iso means their parents are now away from critical the workforce too.

Schools need the authority to refuse to have kids onsite during lock-down whose parents aren't essential workers and ask that kids who do attend wear a mask. If the teachers have to suffer in a mask all day, only fair to insist the non-vaccinated kids do the same.

I'm of the view that for children who are too young to be vaccinated, their parents/household should have to be vaxxed for the children to attend school. The best way to ensure children aren't infected and thus cannot transmit the virus is to ensure everyone around them is fully vaxxed. I don't disagree with the mask wearing, but I think the fully vaxxed household requirement would offer more protection. Just another reason why it is imperative that everyone who can be vaccinated actually get vaccinated.

 

[Jmrocky]

No it's not.I have previously posyted the study that shows the efficacy against delta by the Pfizer vaccine declines and by 6 months the AZ vaccine has greater efficacy.
But here is another report of the drop in the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine.

newsGP - COVID-19 vaccine efficacy fades over time: Study

Vaccine-induced immunity against infection appears to slowly reduce as months pass, but evidence around hospitalisation is less clear. What does this mean for boosters in Australia?

www1.racgp.org.au

And in aged care residents those vaccinated with pfizer-

Study shows 80% COVID-19 antibodies lost six months after second Pfizer vaccine dose; what this means

The results support the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC), recommendation for booster shots especially for the elderly due to fading immunity

www.firstpost.com

As Dirty Harry said -"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do you, punk?"

The first link you posted mentioned what I said

'Nature reports the study as showing the vaccine’s efficacy declined to 90% after 30 days, 85% after 60 days and 78% after 90 days. AstraZeneca’s efficacy began at 69% a fortnight after the second dose, falling to 61% after 90 days, the journal reports.'

Regardless, I'll take the booster and higher effectiveness any day of the week

 

[drron]

The first link you posted mentioned what I said

'Nature reports the study as showing the vaccine’s efficacy declined to 90% after 30 days, 85% after 60 days and 78% after 90 days. AstraZeneca’s efficacy began at 69% a fortnight after the second dose, falling to 61% after 90 days, the journal reports.'

Regardless, I'll take the booster and higher effectiveness any day of the week

6 months is 180 days which the Nature article doesn't cover and it is when the Pfizer really drops off.
Note the CDC figures 80% drop off in antibodie 6 months after the second Pfizer.
In July there was an increase in covid breakthrough cases.On study it was only in those who had been vaccinated in January,February and not from March on.And the increase was more in those vaccinated with Pfizer rather than Moderna or J&J.

 

[mviy]

Interesting the UK has decided to vaccinate 12-15 year olds after all with Chief Medical Officers citing the impact of outbreaks on education and mental health.

Vaccination reduces transmission which reduces the chances of education getting disrupted.

UK to vaccinate over 12s against Covid

All children aged 12-15 will be offered Covid-19 vaccinations, Britain announced Monday, following the advice of four top medical officers.

www.news.com.au

 

[jakeseven7]

6 months is 180 days which the Nature article doesn't cover and it is when the Pfizer really drops off.
Note the CDC figures 80% drop off in antibodie 6 months after the second Pfizer.
In July there was an increase in covid breakthrough cases.On study it was only in those who had been vaccinated in January,February and not from March on.And the increase was more in those vaccinated with Pfizer rather than Moderna or J&J.

There are more studies coming about Pfizer break through issues as well…. Honestly I just want it in people’s arms in Australia though before it gets destroyed too much! Moderna are making some noise about the issues Pfizer are having which is not very constructive re: Pfizer fade and issues with breakthroughs. Sigh.

 

[CaptainCurtis]

Did you see the guardian this weekend Drron, wondered your thoughts on it: Boys more at risk from Pfizer jab side-effect than Covid, suggests study

I am one of the unlucky ones to have been diagnosed with pericarditis following my first pfizer jab as a mid-twenties male (so a little older than the target of the article). I shared some of my experience in another thread, and have had a couple more hospital admissions over the last week with worsening pain levels. It has been a physically and emotionally draining month beyond just the medical issues - I have had to take a fair amount of time off work and I have had to defer some postgraduate studies I had already commenced until next year. I'm unable to exercise, which had been a significant coping mechanism for me during lockdown. There are also questions around whether it will be recommended for me to have my second jab and the implications of whether I will be eligible for the 'freedoms' in NSW if a second-jab isn't advised.

With all of that said, the question I keep getting asked is if I regret getting the vaccine - at this point, the answer to that is no I don't regret it. At the time of my jab, the risk/benefit of course made sense. My concern is that the risks may have been understated in order to prevent an AZ-style media attack on pfizer. Every single GP, cardiologist, sonographer, emergency nurse, pharmacist and pathology collector that I have seen (and trust me, there have been many over the last month), has said that they are seeing countless individuals present with similar symptoms.

 

[Pom-DownUnder]

I am one of the unlucky ones to have been diagnosed with pericarditis following my first pfizer jab as a mid-twenties male (so a little older than the target of the article). I shared some of my experience in another thread, and have had a couple more hospital admissions over the last week with worsening pain levels. It has been a physically and emotionally draining month beyond just the medical issues - I have had to take a fair amount of time off work and I have had to defer some postgraduate studies I had already commenced until next year. I'm unable to exercise, which had been a significant coping mechanism for me during lockdown. There are also questions around whether it will be recommended for me to have my second jab and the implications of whether I will be eligible for the 'freedoms' in NSW if a second-jab isn't advised.

With all of that said, the question I keep getting asked is if I regret getting the vaccine - at this point, the answer to that is no I don't regret it. At the time of my jab, the risk/benefit of course made sense. My concern is that the risks may have been understated in order to prevent an AZ-style media attack on pfizer. Every single GP, cardiologist, sonographer, emergency nurse, pharmacist and pathology collector that I have seen (and trust me, there have been many over the last month), has said that they are seeing countless individuals present with similar symptoms.

Hope it goes as smoothly as it can and you get well soon mate.

I floated the other day about allowing pfizer people to boost with AZ, dont see why you coudlnt have AZ as your second jab personally, I dont recall the exact study but there was good efficacy if i recall correctly from mixing doses.

 

[CaptainCurtis]

Hope it goes as smoothly as it can and you get well soon mate.

Thank you for the good wishes, I appreciate it.

I floated the other day about allowing pfizer people to boost with AZ, dont see why you coudlnt have AZ as your second jab personally, I dont recall the exact study but there was good efficacy if i recall correctly from mixing doses.

I believe my cardiologist is exploring the possibility of AZ for my second dose. The problem is that there is such little evidence on whether symptoms after a first dose are more likely to recur after a second dose, or whether they operate independently. It seems like everyone is learning as we go, which I guess is understandable given the circumstances.

The cynic in me says that I'll end up with TTS if I have the AZ... after all, the chances of pericarditis after Pfizer were supposedly slim (I jest, I think...)

 

[Pom-DownUnder]

Thank you for the good wishes, I appreciate it.


I believe my cardiologist is exploring the possibility of AZ for my second dose. The problem is that there is such little evidence on whether symptoms after a first dose are more likely to recur after a second dose, or whether they operate independently. It seems like everyone is learning as we go, which I guess is understandable given the circumstances.

The cynic in me says that I'll end up with TTS if I have the AZ... after all, the chances of pericarditis after Pfizer were supposedly slim (I jest, I think...)

newsGP - Mixing COVID vaccines could result in stronger immune response

New research suggests mixing one dose of AstraZeneca with either Pfizer or Moderna could be beneficial. Is it something Australia should consider?

www1.racgp.org.au

Considering the 'why' around TTS / Inflamation issues seems to be very unknown and hard to track with rarity personally if i had an adverse reaction to either i'd switch up. I know my reaction to second pfizer was getting knocked around more than with the first one so makes me inclined to take AZ next if i have to do the booster thing which looks more and more likely

 

[drron]

There are only a handful of cases of vaccine myocarditis/pericarditis that have gone on to have their second mRNA jab and so far no reports of the same problem happening.

 

[CaptainCurtis]

newsGP - Mixing COVID vaccines could result in stronger immune response

New research suggests mixing one dose of AstraZeneca with either Pfizer or Moderna could be beneficial. Is it something Australia should consider?

www1.racgp.org.au

Considering the 'why' around TTS / Inflamation issues seems to be very unknown and hard to track with rarity personally if i had an adverse reaction to either i'd switch up. I know my reaction to second pfizer was getting knocked around more than with the first one so makes me inclined to take AZ next if i have to do the booster thing which looks more and more likely

That's an interesting article and also from a reputable source unlike a lot of the garbage that makes its way on to the internet. However, I think the headline of the article itself contains the most important word - 'could'. There are just too many unknowns at this point. As the article acknowledges...

Professor Godfrey said the disparity between the studies could be due to the interval between doses.

As a non-medical individual, this all puts me in a tricky situation. I am completely unequipped to make the risk/reward decision as I do not have access to the latest research, nor an ability to even understand it. So what's left then? Do I go on the advice of my cardiologist? Do I got for a second opinion from an alternative cardiologist? What if their advice is different? Like anything, you can shop around until you find someone that tells you what you want to hear, but that doesn't make it the right decision.

 

[CaptainCurtis]

There are only a handful of cases of vaccine myocarditis/pericarditis that have gone on to have their second mRNA jab and so far no reports of the same problem happening.

Is there any publicly available information I could read on the topic that you could share? I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible. One thing that I have found particularly interesting (and reassuring) is that the approach to treatment has been universal across every medical professional I have seen, so I can only assume that guidelines are being shared across the industry on best practice treatment.

My other question, which no one I've seen has been able to answer yet, would be whether there is any research on having a second mRNA jab while side effects/symptoms from the first persist. The reason I ask is that many have told me that pericarditis can last for 3-6 months.

 

[drron]

Is there any publicly available information I could read on the topic that you could share? I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible. One thing that I have found particularly interesting (and reassuring) is that the approach to treatment has been universal across every medical professional I have seen, so I can only assume that guidelines are being shared across the industry on best practice treatment.

My other question, which no one I've seen has been able to answer yet, would be whether there is any research on having a second mRNA jab while side effects/symptoms from the first persist. The reason I ask is that many have told me that pericarditis can last for 3-6 months.

The official UK advice is that you should defer your second dose until more is known.

The mechanism of action and risk of recurrence of myocarditis and pericarditis with a further dose of vaccine are being investigated, and the current advice is that an individual’s second dose should be deferred until further information becomes available, including the results of serological testing.

Information for healthcare professionals on myocarditis and pericarditis following COVID-19 vaccination

www.gov.uk

Some more reading.

COVID-19 vaccine-induced myocarditis: Case report with literature review - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Myocarditis and pericarditis after immunization: Gaining insights through the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System - PubMed

Myocarditis and pericarditis after immunization: Gaining insights through the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Clinical Considerations: Myocarditis after COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC

Clinical considerations for myocarditis and pericarditis after receipt of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines among adolescents and young adults.

www.cdc.gov

Myocarditis With COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines

Myocarditis has been recognized as a rare complication of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) mRNA vaccinations, especially in young adult and adolescent males. According to the US Centers for Diseas

www.ahajournals.org

I will try and remember to ask about the ATAGI advice tomorrow.

 

[drron]

More on the vaccination of children.looks like it will still be some time before the vaccine is available for the under 12s.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

And an US Q&A session on the vaccination of children.

The Forum and Voices in Leadership series

From 2010-2022, The Studio produced two signature event series, The Forum and Voices in Leadership. The Forum partnered with major media organizations and convened experts from around the world to …

theforum.sph.harvard.edu

 

[drron]

Less than 1% of deaths in the UK with Covid are fully vaccinated patients.
.

Deaths involving COVID-19 by vaccination status, England - Office for National Statistics

An analysis of deaths involving COVID-19 that occurred between 2 January and 2 July 2021 in England, by vaccination status. Includes weekly age-standardised mortality rates for deaths involving COVID-19 by vaccination status and a detailed analysis of deaths involving COVID-19 that occurred in...

www.ons.gov.uk