General Discussion/Q&A on Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Quickstatus]

The mask and seat belt analogy is an interesting one. Seatbelts and other supplementary restraints have been conclusively shown to save lives. There are seatbelt standards (AS/NZ2596, ADR4). And only one type of seatbelt. The mask studies are less clear.

Seatbelts are either on or off. No in between. And easy to enforce via legislation and policing

Masks, it’s not only about the type of masks but the fit, then the way it is used. How to police millions of mask wearers?.

Masks mandates if you want to be serious about it:
N95
Fitted with random checks for fit
Cannot take off
No one is exempt
Police powers on the spot fines
Legislated through each state and written into law

I suspect no politician will be brave enough for than, no electorate will allow that. Afterall, all of the covid regulations so far have been enforced without parliamentary scrutiny or specific legislation.

It will never happen here in AU

Best case is to make N95 available at cost to the public. Encourage its use. Education about use of masks.

 

[N860CR]

But if there is genuine concern for those who ‘don’t have the same privilege’, why aren’t we taking precautions to stop the spread to help those people? We don’t know if we are infected for 1-3 days, but some say they won’t wear a mask and will visit shops or take public transport in the meantime. Where is the care about those they could infect and who have to take time off work, unpaid?

And all the coughnal you have is mask? That we’ve been flogging to death for two and a half years with no positive results? Here’s an idea, drop the isolation and then we won’t have a problem. Sick? Call in sick. Like you did 3 years ago.

Post automatically merged: Aug 6, 2022

The efficacy of masks to prevent catching covid is not what we’re talking about… it’s those who are infected wearing a mask to help stop the spread. And most people aren’t going to know for 1-3 days.

So again, your plan is to wear a mask for eternity. How about you just come out and say this rather than dance around the subject.

 

[oznflfan]

And all the coughnal you have is mask? That we’ve been flogging to death for two and a half years with no positive results? Here’s an idea, drop the isolation and then we won’t have a problem. Sick? Call in sick. Like you did 3 years ago.

Post automatically merged: Aug 6, 2022

So again, your plan is to wear a mask for eternity. How about you just come out and say this rather than dance around the subject.

TEAM 860

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The mask and seat belt analogy is an interesting one. Seatbelts and other supplementary restraints have been conclusively shown to save lives. There are seatbelt standards (AS/NZ2596, ADR4). And only one type of seatbelt. The mask studies are less clear.

Seatbelts are either on or off. No in between. And easy to enforce via legislation and policing

Masks, it’s not only about the type of masks but the fit, then the way it is used. How to police millions of mask wearers?.

Masks mandates if you want to be serious about it:
N95
Fitted with random checks for fit
Cannot take off
No one is exempt
Police powers on the spot fines
Legislated through each state and written into law

I suspect no politician will be brave enough for than, no electorate will allow that. Afterall, all of the covid regulations so far have been enforced without parliamentary scrutiny or specific legislation.

It will never happen here in AU

Best case is to make N95 available at cost to the public. Encourage its use. Education about use of masks.

Yes seat belts save lives… but they are not a guarantee to save lives. Those opposed to wearing masks are asking for 100% effectiveness, and unless we have 100% effectiveness we shouldn’t be required to use them. There are plenty other examples where safety measures are only rarely useful, but we still have them.

In terms of economic impacts, wearing of masks can make the difference between a pay day and no pay day. The rules in place a few months ago with an infected person at the office meant that because I was wearing a mask I did not need to go into isolation for 7 days, people in the lunch room, not wearing masks, did.

 

[JohnK]

While an official policy I don’t know that it was ever done correctly in all places.( maybe places where indoor numbers are capped).

Number caps means nothing. People are still foolish. I've hated queues my entire life especially the slow moving ones where people are squashed together. I now want my privacy in public and avoid going anywhere with crowds.

@drron mask wearing does not need to be forever but until we know more I think its a great idea to try and control the spread. Thailand did fantastically well in the beginning but along with Australia, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan and New Zealand they are now amongst the worst.

I'm not sure where to confirm but mum saying a 3 year old died in Greece from covid. Other reports that a 10 day old is also suffering from covid. I wouldn’t normally be concerned but even natural immunity is no protection against reinfection.

In the village 6-7 kids at my daughters school have been confirmed with covid this week. My daughters friend is one of them and did not go to school on Friday. My daughter has been coughing past few days. She's been saying she has a headache the past 3-4 days. Wife is going to test her this morning.

 

[JohnK]

1)False sense of security?

2)but if a better than ineffectual mask is readily available why not wear that?. (N95 and similar derivatives)

Why are they pushing the use of surgical masks? Cost over N95 mask?

 

[Quickstatus]

masks

If we are going to be real about masks, let's use the ones which are the most effective. Who knows why they are saying "cheap and nasty masks" are acceptable.

Surgical masks can be bought in packs of 50 and cost about $0.3-$0.4 each
N95 /P2 about $1.5 to $2 each


If only Australia took the opportunity to ramp up local production of N95/P2 masks early in the pandemic...

 

[JohnK]

Total deaths from covid in Australia from start of pandemic to 31 Jan 2022 (nearly 2 years) : 2639

Total deaths from falls in Australia in one year (2019-2020): 5300

If you look at global statistics from 1960 the global death rate decreased each and every year until 2019.

I haven't checked this year but we've had increases 3 years in a row.

Something is up. That's for sure and certain.

 

[Lynda2475]

If you look at global statistics from 1960 the global death rate decreased each and every year until 2019

Think perhaps you are misusing the term rate. Raw number of deaths may be rising but so is population that doesnt mean rate is increasing, unless percentage of people dying each year is increasing.

Global deaths are for all causes which includes war and acts of violence which are more prevalent in some parts of the world than other.

Having had covid, i can honestly say ive had way worse colds.

Am in UK at the moment where there are no covid restrictions, havent felt unsafe once on PT or in amongst the crowds, they have moved on and its wonderful. I think ive seen about 10 people only wearing a mask.

 

[drron]

interesting being in the UK at the tail end of the battle to be PM. Some Cabinet Ministers now starting to open up as to how decisions were taken. Most forthright has been the Chancellor of the Exchequer Rishi Sunik on how he was muzzled when trying to argue against lockdowns. This from an Opinion piece in the Telegraph. You have to subscribe but a months free trial at the moment,

Rishi Sunak is just the start. The great lockdown scandal is about to unravel

The pseudo-scientific sheen is finally being stripped off the decision to shut down Britain

www.telegraph.co.uk

Some excerpts if you don't want to subscribe.
His speaking out now confirms much of what many suspected. That the culture of fear, seen in the Orwellian advertising campaign that sought to terrify the country, applied inside Government. Questioning lockdown, even in ministerial meetings, was seen as an attack on the Prime Minister’s authority. To ask even basic questions – about how many extra cancer deaths there might be, for example – was to risk being portrayed as one the crackpots, the “Cov-idiots”, people who wanted to “let the virus rip”. Hysteria had taken hold in the heart of Whitehall.

Lockdown, Sunak says, was always a political decision but No 10 wanted to dress it up as “following the science”. This meant elevating the sprawling Sage committee to the status of a mini-government: don’t blame us, ministers wanted to say, we’re just following the best scientific advice. For that reason, there never was an economic or a social version of Sage: a see-no-evil policy applied. Which worked, until the aftershock of lockdown began – with the evil there for everyone to see.

This matters because this point shows how “the science” was, in fact, no such thing. Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance began by advising ministers not to lock down, saying public events were fine, and that face masks were pointless. They were talking about herd immunity as the way out. Then they flipped entirely. But this reveals something crucial: lockdown never was backed by science. It was about models and suppositions, educated guesswork. It was driven by moods, emotion, fear – and, worst of all, politics masquerading as science.

 

[N860CR]

interesting being in the UK at the tail end of the battle to be PM. Some Cabinet Ministers now starting to open up as to how decisions were taken. Most forthright has been the Chancellor of the Exchequer Rishi Sunik on how he was muzzled when trying to argue against lockdowns. This from an Opinion piece in the Telegraph. You have to subscribe but a months free trial at the moment,

Rishi Sunak is just the start. The great lockdown scandal is about to unravel

The pseudo-scientific sheen is finally being stripped off the decision to shut down Britain

www.telegraph.co.uk

Some excerpts if you don't want to subscribe.
His speaking out now confirms much of what many suspected. That the culture of fear, seen in the Orwellian advertising campaign that sought to terrify the country, applied inside Government. Questioning lockdown, even in ministerial meetings, was seen as an attack on the Prime Minister’s authority. To ask even basic questions – about how many extra cancer deaths there might be, for example – was to risk being portrayed as one the crackpots, the “Cov-idiots”, people who wanted to “let the virus rip”. Hysteria had taken hold in the heart of Whitehall.

Lockdown, Sunak says, was always a political decision but No 10 wanted to dress it up as “following the science”. This meant elevating the sprawling Sage committee to the status of a mini-government: don’t blame us, ministers wanted to say, we’re just following the best scientific advice. For that reason, there never was an economic or a social version of Sage: a see-no-evil policy applied. Which worked, until the aftershock of lockdown began – with the evil there for everyone to see.

This matters because this point shows how “the science” was, in fact, no such thing. Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance began by advising ministers not to lock down, saying public events were fine, and that face masks were pointless. They were talking about herd immunity as the way out. Then they flipped entirely. But this reveals something crucial: lockdown never was backed by science. It was about models and suppositions, educated guesswork. It was driven by moods, emotion, fear – and, worst of all, politics masquerading as science.

Not unlike the general populous. Anyone who dared to speak up and say we shouldn’t be having lockdowns/border closures/mask mandates etc etc was aggressively shot down by the panicked masses. Even a comment like “cases are dropping” or “the new variant is less severe” would line one up for a public attack. If your job depended on said public voting for you, I can see why you wouldn’t stick your neck out.

 

[nutwood]

Not unlike the general populous. Anyone who dared to speak up and say we shouldn’t be having lockdowns/border closures/mask mandates etc etc was aggressively shot down by the panicked masses. Even a comment like “cases are dropping” or “the new variant is less severe” would line one up for a public attack. If your job depended on said public voting for you, I can see why you wouldn’t stick your neck out.

And yet now, no-one cares. I'm amazed at how casual so many are. I've never been paranoid about Covid but I still don't wish to share other people's viral load; even if it is just a common cold.
Classic failure in public education. If you heavily regulate something, all people focus on are the regulations.

 

[N860CR]

And yet now, no-one cares. I'm amazed at how casual so many are. I've never been paranoid about Covid but I still don't wish to share other people's viral load; even if it is just a common cold.
Classic failure in public education. If you heavily regulate something, all people focus on are the regulations.

True. The messaging was flawed from the start, and then we went down the path of state premiers attacking each other. There was never a chance of a logical, measured response.

Sadly, with the money that was wasted on border enforcement, mask enforcement etc etc we could actually have put some good safety nets in place.

 

[Flashback]

I saw something in the news about the isolation period being reduced from 7 to 5 days or similar. I thought to myself .......... wait, what, that's still a thing!?

 

[Pushka]

I saw something in the news about the isolation period being reduced from 7 to 5 days or similar. I thought to myself .......... wait, what, that's still a thing!?

Yes. And Still reportable. But on the TV tonight our Premier indicated that in the very near future then any Covid isolation would be a thing of the past. He has been caught several times, as opposition leader, having to isolate with his young kids for 2 weeks 'only because the school he visited had a Covid case last year, and then this year as all of them had Covid, asymptomatic. Having won the election in March he had no wish to be associated with anything lockdown anymore.

After more than two years of lockdowns and restrictions, and businesses being sent to the wall in the name of health, Premier Peter Malinauskas has signalled that those days are over.

“It’s important that South Australians understand that we are graduating out of the situation where the government is putting restrictions on people’s lives,” Mr Malinauskas said on Thursday.

“The days of mask mandates are numbered. I certainly fit in the category of again wanting people to make decisions and using their own wit and capacity rather than the state telling them what to do.”

He also flagged that compulsory Covid-19 isolation could be scrapped by the end of the month and foreshadowed the removal of masks on public transport within a week.

 

[oznflfan]

I saw something in the news about the isolation period being reduced from 7 to 5 days or similar. I thought to myself .......... wait, what, that's still a thing!?

It's still a thing in LooneyVille as well, AKA Xi-Land, AKA China.

 

[nutwood]

“The days of mask mandates are numbered. I certainly fit in the category of again wanting people to make decisions and using their own wit and capacity rather than the state telling them what to do.”

It would be nice if the various governments started a gentle public education campaign to encourage people to use their own wit and capacity? It's all very well to express a want but when you've spent two years hammering people to not think and just do what they are told, it's not so easy.
Just think of some of the stupidity that was perpetrated in the name of public health. People being fined huge sums for actions that posed no risk to anyone. Restrictions on movement being based on arbitrary political boundaries, often with no medical, geographical, or social logic involved.
I neither forgive nor forget and it's a bit rich popping up now and expecting the populace to think for itself!

 

[ketsuzei]

a gentle public education campaign to encourage people to use their own wit and capacity

If it takes a "campaign" then there's no hope.

 

[Pushka]

It would be nice if the various governments started a gentle public education campaign to encourage people to use their own wit and capacity? It's all very well to express a want but when you've spent two years hammering people to not think and just do what they are told, it's not so easy.
Just think of some of the stupidity that was perpetrated in the name of public health. People being fined huge sums for actions that posed no risk to anyone. Restrictions on movement being based on arbitrary political boundaries, often with no medical, geographical, or social logic involved.
I neither forgive nor forget and it's a bit rich popping up now and expecting the populace to think for itself!

Well, he can do these things because he wasn't the Premier in SA during the first 2 years of the pandemic so he has a clean slate in SA. And clearly he knows that people's rights were trampled on, even when they were doing absolutely the right thing. The worst was putting one man into a two week lockdown in the positive virus hotel simply because he was in a shop where our first Omincron person had also shopped prior to diagnosis, back in November. The man was alerted by the app and immediately went into quarantine at home on his own but that wasn't good enough for our CHO who sent a police car and ambulance to force him into that horrid place. The then Premier allowed that to happen.

 

[nutwood]

Well, he can do these things because he wasn't the Premier in SA during the first 2 years of the pandemic so he has a clean slate in SA. And clearly he knows that people's rights were trampled on, even when they were doing absolutely the right thing. The worst was putting one man into a two week lockdown in the positive virus hotel simply because he was in a shop where our first Omincron person had also shopped prior to diagnosis, back in November. The man was alerted by the app and immediately went into quarantine at home on his own but that wasn't good enough for our CHO who sent a police car and ambulance to force him into that horrid place. The then Premier allowed that to happen.

I don't view it as an individual thing. More a way of thinking. Look across the country. Unthinking, heavy handed approaches taken everywhere. I can appreciate the motivating public health concerns but it was very educational to observe how our revered leaders handled being presented with emergency powers.