General EV Discussion

[ZigZagWanderer]

Why should EV uptake be incentivised?.
I ask the question because all ev owners i speak to say the cost of operating and maintaining the vehicle is better than an ICE car. If it is so compelling why subsidise it?

While I was talking about rooftop solar, I wholeheartedly agree with you on EVs. As for solar, it's so cheap, the rich producers have to be subsidised by poorer consumers.

The irony in both situations is as heavy as one could imagine.

 

[Scarlett]

Nice car @Cruiser Elite.
It’s hurting my brain a little seeing some pony stickers on the front and back and those tail lights, but I guess marketing folks can call anything a Mustang if they really want to!

 

[latawiec]

It's called a Loyalty Reward.

Increase in insurance premium is probably due to an increased risk of fires from EVs.

The fires predominantly occur when lithium-ion battery is charging.

Overcharging can occur, overheating can occur and in that instance the lithium-ion batteries becomes extremely dangerous and very susceptible to at least toxic odour emissions or indeed small fire, or catastrophic fire in extreme circumstances.

EV's fires concern being urged for National attention by the ACT Firefighters Union that was screened on ABC on 12 March 2023.

 

[jb747]

Never queued more than 5 min (and that was at a Chargefox charger at Barnwartha nr Albury)

Why go there, when there's a Supercharger setup in Wodonga?

 

[latawiec]

Don't know about EVs, but the renewal for my car just came in with a 38% increase. Seems like the RACV are assuming I won't shop around.

In UK - Average electric car insurance costs rose 72% in the year to September, compared to 29pc for petrol and diesel models, according to Confused.com.

 

[Quickstatus]

when there's a Supercharger setup in Wodonga?

Wodonga 6x125kW now upstaged by the Commercial Club in Albury with 16 x 250kW superchargers. Also open to non Teslas

EV's fires concern being urged for National attention by the ACT Firefighters Union that was screened on ABC on 12 March 2023.

Incidence of EV fires a lot less than other car fires. Though when one lights up it is almost impossible to extinguish especially in an enclosed environment such as a building car park. The Commercial Club in Albury seems Pk with it

 

[p--and--t]

Increase in insurance premium is probably due to an increased risk of fires from EVs.

The fires predominantly occur when lithium-ion battery is charging.

Overcharging can occur, overheating can occur and in that instance the lithium-ion batteries becomes extremely dangerous and very susceptible to at least toxic odour emissions or indeed small fire, or catastrophic fire in extreme circumstances.

EV's fires concern being urged for National attention by the ACT Firefighters Union that was screened on ABC on 12 March 2023.

An ABC beatup on a slow day.

Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher

Two electric vehicle fires have been reported in Australia this week. Five cars were destroyed after a lithium battery ignited in a car parked at Sydney Airport on Monday. Firefighters believed the battery had been detached from the car because it was damaged.

www.swinburne.edu.au

 

[clifford]

New EV's are fine (I imagine), but who would buy a used one?

This is becoming a major issue for car rental and finance companies.

More clunkers to junk?

 

[Gremlin]

In UK - Average electric car insurance costs rose 72% in the year to September, compared to 29pc for petrol and diesel models, according to Confused.com.

This has very little to do with the relative risk of EVs vs ICEs and everything to do with changing competitive pressures of the UK insurance market.

On average, in Australia, repair costs tend to be higher for EVs (primarily because batteries are expensive) but frequency of collision tends to be a bit lower, all other things being equal, due to the impact of regenerative braking decelerating an EV more than an equivalent ICE car.

It’s not quite a wash yet, but as batteries become cheaper, I’d expect insurance costs for EVs to drop below those of an equivalent ICE - probably in the next two to three years.

 

[Gremlin]

New EV's are fine (I imagine), but who would buy a used one?

This is becoming a major issue for car rental and finance companies.

More clunkers to junk?

Hmmm. I was an early adopter and sold two EVs previously. Both privately and both went within a week for more than I expected. Obviously YRMV (Your RANGE May Vary).

 

[Cruiser Elite]

Each to their own of course but this vehicle ticked all the boxes and was a no-brainer decision from the moment I first saw them in USA

• I have always loved and wanted a Mustang
• Coming from a professional transport background I just could never bring myself to buy a burbling V8 that would gulp 5 gallons to the mile
• My personal vehicle is definitely going to be a SUV
• Having pioneered the electric bicycle industry in Australia it was logical transition to electric SUV when right vehicle was available
• The Mustang MACH-E Premium model has a range up to 600km
• And it is unique = a no-brainer

 

[Cruiser Elite]

As for insurance rates / comparison NFI - I will talk to our insurers ASAP and report back - temporary cover was all that was required ATPIT

 

[Quickstatus]

repair costs tend to be higher for EVs (primarily because batteries are expensive)

Im not sure repair costs are higher because of battery repair/replacement. I think the issues are multifaceted.

 

[tgh]

it is unique

and well reviewed… reads like a good call to me

 

[Gremlin]

Im not sure repair costs are higher because of battery repair/replacement. I think the issues are multifaceted.

I'm not disagreeing with you. It's definitely multifaceted.

But the battery is a very expensive component that can be more easily damaged in a collision than, say, a fuel tank in an ICE. Labour costs to remove and replace a battery are considerable compared to replacing or repairing an engine (or more commonly, part of an engine). Because of the relative total cost of the vehicle, from an insurer's perspective, the ICE can be cheaper to 'write off' and pay out the sum insured than an EV. So a Hyundai Kona petrol model will be written off more often than a Hyundai Kona EV where it might be repaired, even as the repair costs are higher.

In some cases, the increased labour costs are due to limited expertise, meaning those with the expertise can charge more than they might otherwise in a more competitive and upskilled market. Like any new tech, this will come down over time as EVs become more prevalent.

 

[Quickstatus]

So a Hyundai Kona petrol model will be written off more often than a Hyundai Kona EV where it might be repaired, even as the repair costs are higher.

A lot of this is speculative. Unless we have visibility into how insurers price their premium, I don't know we can say this one way or another. A lot of Tesla repair issues have also been due to the fact of poor/inadequate spare parts supply. Other than that I don't think we can say why.

 

[tgh]

Early adopters always take some risk, sometimes it pays off and sometimes it don't.
My call remains that I will not buy an EV but applaud all those who choose to do so.

 

[Gremlin]

A lot of this is speculative. Unless we have visibility into how insurers price their premium, I don't know we can say this one way or another. A lot of Tesla repair issues have also been due to the fact of poor/inadequate spare parts supply. Other than that I don't think we can say why.

I completely agree that unless we have visibility into how insurers price then we can't say this one way or another.

Also, I stand by the fact that it's not speculative.

Yep - 100% agree with supply chain for spare parts - esp Teslas. Supply chain for parts has been an issue for several brands (including some ICE only brands) for a variety of reasons. These are (well, should be) short to medium term issues, but there are still structural differences between ICE and EV from an insurance perspective that will persist.

 

[jb747]

It’s not quite a wash yet, but as batteries become cheaper, I’d expect insurance costs for EVs to drop below those of an equivalent ICE - probably in the next two to three years.

How do you work this out? I can't see them becoming miraculously cheaper to repair.

On the other hand, I can see insurers simply continuing to increase their prices at rates far beyond inflation. I've just worked out that at the average of RACV's increases, they'll absorb my entire retirement income in not too many years.

 

[Gremlin]

How do you work this out? I can't see them becoming miraculously cheaper to repair.

On the other hand, I can see insurers simply continuing to increase their prices at rates far beyond inflation. I've just worked out that at the average of RACV's increases, they'll absorb my entire retirement income in not too many years.

Personal view based on extrapolating current trends. Not necessarily the view of an employer.

To be clear, I don't think they will be cheaper to repair than today. Claims inflation is still going to hurt for a couple of years yet, given that for parts, as a nation, we are essentially a price taker, not a price maker. If the Aussie Dollar starts to improve, then this may mitigate a bit.

I do, however, think they will be cheaper to insure than equivalent ICE models. For a couple of reasons.

First, I think that, whilst there have been supply chain issues for both ICEs and EVs, these have disproportionately impacted EVs. This will (well, SHOULD) unwind over the next few years which will ease insurance premium inflation for EVs more than ICEs.

Second, there is a relative scarcity of EV-experienced repairers at the moment, particularly in certain geographic locations. Supply and demand means that the ones that are there can charge a further margin over their ICE-equivalent repairers, especially if you effectively have no other competition in your area. This gets fed back to the insurer, who feeds it back to the customer. As more and more repairers become EV savvy, this will increase competition amongst repairers, which will drive down those margins and reduce cost to the insurer/insureds.

Third, the mix of claims is changing over time. Improvements in autonomous driving features, disproportionately represented on EVs relative to ICEs, is meaningfully reducing the frequency of certain types of collision claims, thus reducing the premiums disproportionately for EVs. Meanwhile, weather related claims are increasing significantly. But weather claims are more likely to be panel only damage than collision claims. And for panel only damage it doesn't really make as much of a difference whether the car is ICE or EV.

Therefore, I expect that inflation in insurance premiums for ICE cars will outstrip that for EVs.