Heads up about program changes

[Red Roo]

Red Roo - can you please confirm if U fare ticket booked on ASA continues to earn points and SCs from July 1?

From 1 July, X, Z, U and P fares will be available as Classic Award s only and therefore not be eligible to earn Status credits or points.

Frequent Flyer - Fairer Flying

 

[dfcatch]

I'm one of those high status customers who got there by "gaming" the system. I took advantage of double status credit offers and marginal Any Seat Awards for the last few years to reach and maintain WP. I almost always fly discount economy - with the notable exception of taking advantage of the business class MASAs.

But I dispute that I'm an expensive customer and that Qantas loses money on my business. In fact, I'd argue that I generate a disproportionately high profit for them.

Consider: Before I got caught up in the tier hunt game and well and truly earned the "wanker" tag, I only ever flew best fare of the day. Hardly any of my flying was with Qantas, certainly hardly any of my self-funded flying. (For the past two years 100% of my travel has been self-funded.)

But since I started to chase SCs I essentially changed from "best fare of the day" to "best Qantas Group fare of the day". To this effect I:

• consistently flew Qantas domestically over Virgin, even though Qantas's fares are consistently higher.
• consistently flew Jetstar over Tiger, even though Jetstar's fares are consistently higher, and paid the premium for the Plus bundle on top of that.
• consistently flew Qantas (either Qantas metal or Qantas codeshare) over other airlines internationally, even though Qantas's fares are consistently higher. For instance, I recently paid $1299 for a discount economy flight to Los Angeles when Air New Zealand was selling its SYD-LAX flights for a touch over $900, a premium of almost 50%. Before that, I paid over $3000 for a Sydney/London/New York/Sydney trip on QF when other airlines (IIRC it was a mix of Virgin Atlantic and Delta or maybe United) were charging a tad a bit over $2000, again a premium of almost 50%.
• took advantage of several 50% and double status credit offers and marginal ASAs, which meant that rather than paying $400 economy return each for several flights to Perth (the best fare of the day), I paid over $600 business return in cash plus 88,000 in points (which reduced Qantas's liability by around $880 based on a conservative valuation of 1c/point) per trip. Ie, I effectively paid a premium of somewhere around $1280 or more for each of these flights. Yes, I flew in business, but I would normally never fly in business. I'm content in economy. I've even flown Tiger to Perth and found the experience perfectly acceptable.
• I switched to a credit card that charges me hundreds of dollars in fees simply so that my spend will generate points - Qantas of course sells these points to the bank and earns real dollars that way, and "buys" these points back from me in a way that costs them a pittance in real dollars.

The marginal increase in revenue (or decrease in liabilities, which has the same effect on the bottom line) as a result of this - quite frankly utilitarian nonsensical - behaviour is high. Increase in revenue/decrease in liabilities: thousands of dollars.

The corresponding marginal increase in cost is low. (Remembering that substantial fixed costs - such as building and outfitting a lounge - are effectively sunk costs.) A dozen or so entries into the lounge where I consume a few dollars worth of food and drink per visit. A business class meal on those flight when I leverage the MASAs. I'm not displacing a full-fare paying passenger because with Qantas's "65% market share" line-in-the-sand and the relative scarcity of MASAs in the first place there's always room in the business class section anyway, so there's no corresponding loss in full fare business class revenue. Increase in costs: hundreds of dollars.

Probably the only times I've lost Qantas money is the two times I've taken advantage of the First Class international lounge on a cheap Jetstar pseudo-domestic ticket. I paid about $80 for each of these tickets and - factoring in the incremental cost of my lounge meal - may have lost Qantas a few dozen dollars on these two occasions. (It's also possible that my upcoming American Airlines status run may lose Qantas something, depending on the cross-airline transfer costings.) But considering I spent thousands of dollars to get to that point I don't think they should complain about that. Because net increase in profit as a result of my participation in the QFF snipe hunt: thousands of dollars.

But will I continue with this behaviour as a result of these latest changes that further devalue the loyalty scheme? No. I will go back to best economy fare of the day, which will rarely be Qantas.

That's how these changes will personally affect me. Everyone's mileage will obviously vary.


Speaking more generally, these changes seem to have been implemented on the assumption that relatively few people will change their purchasing behaviour adversely as a result, thereby generating fewer liabilities/costs for Qantas for the same travel/revenue. And/or it assumes that relatively many people will pay an even higher premium for the same benefits - eg changing from a partner airline flight to a Qantas flight, or a sale fare to a flexible fare, or from economy to business, in order to chase points and status credits. If these assumptions are correct, then the changes will be to Qantas's financial benefit. If they aren't, it will only further erode their profitability and long-term brand loyalty.

Yes, yes yes and yes.

But don't tell that to some members of this forum who believe that everyone except for themselves is a loyal/profitable flyer.

BTW - QF get paid hard currency for the points & SCs you earn on AA. You then have to spend money with QF to fly with them to take advantage of your earned status - so again they're not losing. If you use a QF lounge whilst actually flying CX (for example), CX pay QF for your lounge entry.

IF you did a JQ35 F Lounge run everyday on a $9 TT match - and you never flew QF Group outside of that - then yes you would probably be a financial burden.

A very large number of AFF members were BFOD type people before they started playing the game and we all know how addictive it is. Most of us refuse to actually calculate how many thousands of $$$ we have spent playing the game which has essentially been donations to QF so we can get wallet candy.
If we don't then actually fly - then that's all it is - wallet candy.
IF we do fly - then yes we use the benefits, and yes those benefits mean we have slightly eroded the profit that QF otherwise would have made on that Red e-deal fare. EXCEPT for one tiny fact - without said status - we wouldn't have flown QF, we would have flown VA because they're cheaper. So QF still wins.

If we accepted the logic of some folks here (the premium cabin on the company dime folk) - even those pesky Silver and QP members should get the shaft cause they don't contribute anything. People forget that everyone starts somewhere - that's the whole point of the loyalty system. I haven't met a single AFF'er who regrets spending unnecessary money playing the game. And that game has resulted in many self-funded flyers being very profitable to QF over the long-term (and loyal).

All well and good to say that the F flyer paying cash is worth more to QF - today - yes they are, by several thousand $$$$. But they're not necessarily loyal. Not when tomorrow their employer sends them SQ Suites instead of QF.

But tomorrow - the long-term Self-Funded WP will be in Discount Economy - but they will be in QANTAS Discount Economy - an otherwise empty Qantas seat.

Qantas (and the snobbier members of AFF) would do well to remember that point.

 

[Red Roo]

Having stupidly assumed the Terms and Conditions would provide for earning on ASA; I now have to say it's not clear at all. Relevant clauses would be 9.3.1, 9.3.2 and 9.4. I'll leave it to others to make their own assessment. But on balance I'd have to say 9.4.1(a) says no earn after 30 June 2014 for MASA, as X,U, etc. will not be listed in the earning table. Qantas or Red Roo making misleading statements here.

Frequent Flyer - About the Program - Terms & Conditions

Hi Medhead,

You are right, U is in the earn table in the terms and conditions you referenced above. But these terms and conditions are for the current earn rate. Booking class U is listed on the current airline earning table, as when booked as an ASA today via the call centre, it is eligible for the point earn.

The booking class U is not listed on the new earn rate table as it will no longer be a booking class eligible for points earn.

Cheers,
Red Roo

 

[mannej]

No need to get wtf-ish. Its called an analogy. If part of QF seems to have 'don't care about detail', then legitimate to question their attention elsewhere.

But if you don't like the analogy - just ignore it

No, because it is xenophobic and you have already been told your view is wrong.

It isn't as if maintenance requirements are regulated by CASA et al...
Why would you continue to harp on about it.

 

[GalaxyNexus]

I'll be cynical and assume that well, they won't know, will default to cough earning, and will make it hard for people to claim "ticket is booked before such a date". Then expect people to not care much and voila they saved some miles.

 

[Thunder Down Under]

With all you QFF's coming over to Velocity, it's going to be awful crowded.:shock:

TDU

 

[greenfish]

Was aiming for 1000000 points as a personal target for no real reason and would have got there in a couple of months. Have now burned just under 900k on J (EK & CX) for the family to Europe and have no desire to fly QF after this. I'm off to VA and will most likely be getting very familiar with AUH instead of DXB.

That's masochistic

 

[cmon0005]

All well and good to say that the F flyer paying cash is worth more to QF - today - yes they are, by several thousand $$$$. But they're not necessarily loyal. Not when tomorrow their employer sends them SQ Suites instead of QF.

But tomorrow - the long-term Self-Funded WP will be in Discount Economy - but they will be in QANTAS Discount Economy - an otherwise empty Qantas seat.

Very well said dfcatch! This is my thinking as well, and one that the bean counters don't take into account and why QF's results will be worse next year.!

 

[hdfb]

Just hoping Red Roo gets to keep his/her job after this. Feeding back 81 pages (so far) of negativity to the powers that be regarding some of their loyal customers can't be good!

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Any guesses as to how many more years Qantas will survive in it's current form? I'd doubt they would make 2020.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Anyone else thinking BAEC might be a way forward? They run a similar SC scheme to QFF, you just need a foreign address to get your card. Many of us still BA gold from the BMI days, and there is some value around on the >2000 mile AA YUP flights (210 tier points each) - e.g. hnl-lax-mia = 420tp (1500tp to earn BA gold = qf plat)

 

[RooFlyer]

No, because it is xenophobic and you have already been told your view is wrong.

It isn't as if maintenance requirements are regulated by CASA et al...
Why would you continue to harp on about it.

Have a think about that

Oh, 'xenophobic' - it wasn't anything to do about 'offshore' maintenance, FFS! It was a comment about "maintenance" . Geddit?

 

[Jean Prouvaire]

BTW - QF get paid hard currency for the points & SCs you earn on AA. You then have to spend money with QF to fly with them to take advantage of your earned status - so again they're not losing.

Thanks for clarifying that.

A very large number of AFF members were BFOD type people before they started playing the game and we all know how addictive it is. Most of us refuse to actually calculate how many thousands of $$$ we have spent playing the game which has essentially been donations to QF so we can get wallet candy.

That really captures the psychology of my experience. Yesterday's news was a bit of a wake-up call to go cold turkey for me. I have 13 flights pre-booked with Qantas and Jetstar over the coming months, plus another 5 with partner airlines, but any future bookings will be done on a simple BFOD basis.

Good to see Red Roo active again too, hopefully armed with a sturdy merlot.

 

[mannej]

Have a think about that

ditto....

 

[dfcatch]

PS. We should give credit where it's due.

QF promised not to use "enhancement" anymore.

We never made them promise not to make things "simpler".


lol

 

[Maca44]

Red Roo has re-appeared to clarify some points, and the messenger is certainly taking a few head shots. Remember, he is only the messenger.
On another issue, I have been Qantas Club Life since 1992 so have had my monies worth since that time. I have only recently reached Gold, but with Life QP there is little benefit with the number of flights I take. In saying that, in recently months I have flown VA PE and J to the USA, and also Air NZ in J to the US (wow, and those that have flown NZ in J will know what I mean). VA has lifted their game considerable, and I feel I have been flying QF through loyalty to Australia, if you refer to QF being the Australian carrier. I have three more trips to the USA this year, one already booked with CX and today booked the next two with VA. It's an old saying that you treat people the way you would like to be treated yourself. I don't think QF understand this, so in that regard it's now time to move on. I might add that I do not book discount fares, and have been fortunate to not have flown Y for more than 10 years. As I move more to VA I just hope I don't get hurt in the rush

 

[Brettmcg]

Good to see Red Roo active again too, hopefully armed with a sturdy merlot.

I'd dare say the entire epiQure stock wouldn't be enough to soothe the souls of Red Roo and the entire social media team at the moment

 

[TheEmu]

No not chasing status but by booking a classic award seat are the available seats are lot less than bookung masa?

No, mASA seats come from the same booking class as Classic so removing mASA should give better availability for Classic redemptions.

 

[dfcatch]

Hi Medhead,

You are right, U is in the earn table in the terms and conditions you referenced above. But these terms and conditions are for the current earn rate. Booking class U is listed on the current airline earning table, as when booked as an ASA today via the call centre, it is eligible for the point earn.

The booking class U is not listed on the new earn rate table as it will no longer be a booking class eligible for points earn.

Cheers,
Red Roo

Red Roo,

I'm sorry to be repetitive - but to confirm...

A "U" class ASA booked prior to 30 June (for travel after 1 July) WILL earn points and SC - BUT at the NEW earn rate.

A "U" class ASA booked TODAY - will earn at the old earn rate - regardless of date of travel.

Is that correct?

 

[Archphoto]

I had a look at the new "fairer" table and if I'm reading it correctly under the previous points system, I got 2x the points (flying Y) than you now get flying Business Class from BKK-SYD.

Old Earning Table: BKK-SYD (base points) Y 4684; 30SCs
New Earning Table: BKK-SYD (base points) Y - anywhere between 550 - 1100; SCs 15-30 (depending on what Y class I book)
New Earning Table: BKK-SYD J (base points) 1650; 60SCs

In essence under this "Fairer System", I pay more for my SCs (the more expensive the fare, the more SCs I'll earn), but my big reward for that will be that I actually earn far less FF points. Even if I spend the extra to fly J, I would earn 35% less points than I previously earned flying Y.


Yup QF, it seems so much fairer now. . . . . or am I reading it totally wrong???