How can QFi not be making any money? packed flights to the UK

[pottsy]

Agree re: making money & speculating on being seated at the pointy end!
Could you tell me where you found/find the info on seating numbers available in different booking classes? Thx in advance

 

[graxx]

I also think Qantas has been less than prudent and lacking in value assessment at the amount of money they have squandered on their 1st class and business lounges, to doubtful advantage. As a designer I am continually astounded at their selection of furniture which is always about the most expensive stuff on the market. A lot of it is not even appropriate to its use and some basically uncomfortable! The chairs in the First Lounge in Sydney were specially designed and made in Italy for a reputed $30,000 each. Not only are they pretty ordinary and 1960s looking, they are low backed and uncomfortable if you are there for more than a short time. They are also looking worn- hate to think how much they will cost to recover.
The lounges also don't have any real feeling of 'luxury' or timelessness or whatever they are trying to achieve and, in fact, looked fairly dated when they first went in.
This is in fact a symptom of the

 

[amaroo]

I also think Qantas has been less than prudent and lacking in value assessment at the amount of money they have squandered on their 1st class and business lounges, to doubtful advantage.

The lounges also don't have any real feeling of 'luxury' or timelessness or whatever they are trying to achieve and, in fact, looked fairly dated when they first went in.
This is in fact a symptom of the

Without being rude - what a load of rubbish!

 

[RAM]

Including why you failed to refer to differences in wage and working conditions. May go a bit to explain the cheaper JQi SIN prices...

[FONT=&quot]I did not mention wage costs and conditions as they are a much smaller component of the cost base of an airline than fuel, maintenance and cost of the aircraft. The spin put out is not necessarily true but if said often and loud enough it gets accepted.

That said the total on-costs for Qantas staff is higher than Jetstar and is a legacy issue as mentioned before when weak senior management did not stand up against unrealistic claims.

Wages in Singapore for example for pilots, co-pilots, flight engineers etc are quite similar to Australia - the skill is portable that is why there are so many Australian pilots (post-Ansett) flying around the world. If you work in a mainland CBD (say Sydney) you see the coach arrive from the airport and unload the Emirates, Etihad, Singapore Airlines crews (cabin & coughpit) at the Hilton, Sheraton on the Park or a couple of times I've seen them at the Park Hyatt. I do not think those working conditions are too bad. So the Qantas line about staff costs vs other airlines (their chief competitors) do ring hollow.

Interestingly, given the plethora of Premier Inns (19 & 29 pound spotlessly clean rooms in the UK around the airports) that I have seen (while I've been staying there) other international airlines putting staff (ranging from lcc - EasyJet to fcc - Emirates) does make me wonder where Qantas staff stay?

Jetstar is required to offer equivalent pay & conditions on its aircraft using overseas staff to Australian staff (remember recent case where they were accused of not paying the correct wages etc to Asian based staff).

But there is a cost saving - not massive. But lets look at a large saving anyway. Say on a 747-400 crew at $30,000 a year per cabin staff (guess 12) so saving $360,000 a year. Spread that over 100 flights to UK gives $3,600 saving per long haul flight. Or approx 1.5 economy seats.

If Qantas staff are worth the extra money (interesting question if paid more are they providing better service/productivity?) then that should provide a benefit to Qantas through higher customer ratings etc. That does not seem to be the experience of the majority of AFF members does it?

So perhaps Qantas mgmt do have a point about the high wage structure -BUT IT DOES NOT EXPLAIN THE PROFIT/LOSS.

The age of the fleet explains the bulk of the higher cost structure. Also, new fleet provides higher tax benefit from depreciation write-offs. So Jetstar gets the cheaper operating cost aircraft with tax benefit to boot.

Curiously management do not mention that but send the new planes to Jetstar and use 20+ year old 747s in Qantas with per seat km cost up to low 20%s higher due to fuel consumption and maintenance schedules (more maintenance time = less revenue time and more labour & parts costs & sqm cost of maintenance space as well as higher insurance charges - now that is not something you have ever heard Qantas management mention is it?).[/FONT]

 

[dukkha]

Holy misinformed stereotyping, batman! :shock:

A recent indicative figure of energy subsidiary in the Middle East:-

...subsidised power. Domestic energy can be bought at the equivalent of $10 a barrel

Saudi Arabia: The long day closes | The Economist

This is very cheap compare to Australian portable water, say, $10 per 12 Litre at Officework. QAN is disadvantaged by the sovereign subsidiary. Unforced error of QAN.

 

[RAM]

A recent indicative figure of energy subsidiary in the Middle East:-

Saudi Arabia: The long day closes | The Economist

This is very cheap compare to Australian portable water, say, $10 per 12 Litre at Officework. QAN is disadvantaged by the sovereign subsidiary. Unforced error of QAN.

[FONT=&amp] I am not sure of the relevance of the cost of bottled water (highest mark-up product in the world other than illegal drugs btw!). In the Economist article it goes on to state that they need the oil price to be at least above $75 to scrape by unsustainably and over $100 to continue the way they are currently with 30% unemployment.

I think 30% unemployment has more to do with wage costs in Saudi than the oil price. Wage costs in China have risen 20 fold since 2000 for 17-23 year old female factory workers. Nationwide unemployment rate for them in 2010 was 0.6%.

Electricity in most economies is not generated by oil.

Gas is used hundreds of times more than oil consumption for electricity generation as it is significantly cheaper.

Gas prices in the US for example are now 1/30th the oil price. $2.91 vs 87.

So using oil at $10 a barrel is 333% MORE EXPENSIVE to generate electricity than gas currently - those poor Middle Eastern countries' airlines ARE BEING PENALISED.

Also as we know desalination plants are hugely energy expensive, Middle Eastern water costs enormously more than Australian water to provide.

Qantas is in a better competitive position on that basis as well - OOPS!

A barrel of oil has roughly 6 times the energy content of a MMBtu of natural gas. If the fuels were perfect substitutes, oil prices would tend to to be about 6 times natural gas prices. In practice, however, the ease of using oil for making gasoline makes oil more valuable

The cost of electricity in Australia is amongst the lowest in the world actually.

In March 2011 the Australian Government agency, ABARE, released a price comparison in its Energy in Australia publication. Showing that in 2009 Australia had low electricity prices compared with most other OECD countries for both residential and industrial customers.

The graph below is a little out of date and UNDERSTATES the cost benefit in Australia (pre-carbon tax etc). Whilst prices have risen in Aust of the last 3 years the rises are at the low end of the global scale. That brown coal has kept Australia more than globally competitive - that is why the Aluminium smelters are here (and China is building so many of them to burn brown coal for their power by the way but do not get me started).[/FONT]

The answer to Qantas' costs vs Jetstar vs overseas airlines predominantly is age of fleet and all the Qantas spin will not change that.[FONT=&amp]

I wonder why Jetstar does not get the old aircraft and is getting the new 787s instead of Qantas? Why Qantas had pushed out the arrival of more A380s (apart from wing structural issues I suppose)?[/FONT]

 

[Snowy56]

One way Qantas is making money is by forcing customers, who want to use points to upgrade, into buying a much higher economy fare. I recently paid over $700 more for an economy fare that would make me eligible to REQUEST an upgrade. You don't find out whether you have the upgrade until 5 hours before the flight. If you don't get the upgrade then tough, Qantas has just pocketed an extra $700.

Also having just flown Qantas International Economy class for the first time in 6 years, I truly believe that it should be called budget class.
No water, orange juice and nibbles whilst waiting for take-off.
No magazines
No drink service before dinner
No 2nd offering of drinks during dinner
No refresher cloth
No socks
and as for the sleep mask - what a coughpy piece of plastic!
Seems that only Premium economy passengers get these extras now.

 

[medhead]

Also having just flown Qantas International Economy class for the first time in 6 years, I truly believe that it should be called budget class.
No water, orange juice and nibbles whilst waiting for take-off.
No magazines
No drink service before dinner
No 2nd offering of drinks during dinner
No refresher cloth
No socks
and as for the sleep mask - what a coughpy piece of plastic!
Seems that only Premium economy passengers get these extras now.

name one airline that has pre-takeoff drinks/nibbles for economy.
They had the Qantas inflight magazine in economy in May.
Business class doesn't get pre-dinner drinks or socks either. So I hope that PE wouldn't have those.


Sent from the Throne

 

[Kolo]

I have a real problem with QFi being separated from other parts of the QF business and then its selective losses being used as a tool to close routes and attempt to downgrade working conditions and services. QF business should be looked at as a whole. Each one of us FFs see it as a whole - using QFF, QFi and QFd as one interchangeable service. People choose to fly QFi because of their QFd and QFF use and vice versa. In some ways QFi could be viewed as a loss leader for QFF and QFd. They are all dependent on each other. The business as a whole is still making mega profits. If there was no QFi I suspect many more FFs would join people like me who are now actively choosing other carriers and giving DJ a go.

Like him or hate him, AJ cannot seriously be viewed as a good CEO. Any CEO that has such poor relationships and communication with their staff and goes to extremes of closing their businesses temporarily should not be in the job.

 

[ozmille]

name one airline that has pre-takeoff drinks/nibbles for economy.
They had the Qantas inflight magazine in economy in May.
Business class doesn't get pre-dinner drinks or socks either. So I hope that PE wouldn't have those.


Sent from the Throne

As late as April they had socks in the amenity kits in J, have they stopped that? The QF website still states that they are in the pack though

 

[pm3207]

There are socks in the business class amenity kit

 

[mannej]

name one airline that has pre-takeoff drinks/nibbles for economy.
They had the Qantas inflight magazine in economy in May.
Business class doesn't get pre-dinner drinks or socks either. So I hope that PE wouldn't have those.


Sent from the Throne

Socks should still be in the J Pack.

QF is certainly not going against the trend here. The decline in Y service goes across many airlines.
EK - do they not provide their magazine as a function of their IFE to save weight? I have noticed the hot towels to be disappearing on other airlines as well.

 

[medhead]

I don't really know about the socks, I don't open the amenity kits instead keeping them for presents. So you caught me there speaking out my backside.

I'm still kinda annoyed about the lack of pre-dinner drink, however.


Sent from the Throne

 

[Kangol]

I'm still kinda annoyed about the lack of pre-dinner drink, however.

I had several pre-dinner drinks in PE and pre-lunch drinks in J earlier this year on QFi - has it now changed?
Even if you asked for a drink, would they not give it to you before the main meal?

 

[mannej]

I don't not remember getting a pre-dinner drink, so not entirely sure.

 

[Moopere]

... Any CEO that has such poor relationships and communication with their staff and goes to extremes of closing their businesses temporarily should not be in the job.

I seriously reckon this is the about the only thing he's done right.

Outside of that, if we want to try and understand the internal reporting split and the other shenanigans going on that the moment I think we need to look at the strategy as a whole of conflict, not simply a tactical level battle. The QF board, in my opinion, is silently waging war with the government, vis-a-vis the QF Sale Act.

I wouldn't be completely shocked to see them show the government a QFi that is clearly under-performing (reasons can be argued for sure), and saying, well, what do you want to do? ... re-nationalise the international arm? (yeah right), pay us for some sort of compensation/restructure (ha!), let it die off and be closed .... or .... remove the QF Sale Act..

 

[medhead]

I had several pre-dinner drinks in PE and pre-lunch drinks in J earlier this year on QFi - has it now changed?
Even if you asked for a drink, would they not give it to you before the main meal?

Not sure what flight you were on but QF2 in May there was no pre dinner drink in J. They did the pre take off drink then the first contact (maybe an hour or so after takeoff) was to ask meal choice and dinner drink choice. On one leg I asked for a Campari and soda for pre dinner drink and was told that my meal would be here soon but they could do it if I wanted.

So no pre dinner drink was offered but would be available if one asked for it. This would have required using the call button, which I feel is pushy and hence I try to avoid it. By contrast J SYD-ADL involves a pre-meal drink service from a cart with a separate meal service.


Sent from the Throne

 

[Happy Trails]

Isn't it only the late departing "supper" flights that don't serve pre-dinner drinks in J?

 

[bcworld]

Isn't it only the late departing "supper" flights that don't serve pre-dinner drinks in J?

There were no pre dinner drinks in J on LHR-SIN dep 2230 last month...service took so long to reach row 24 that was probably a relief!

Also no pre dinner drinks on the SIN-MEL sector dep 8pm ish.

The service was adequate, but nothing more...on reflection I'm left thinking its more centred around keeping the crew happy than the pax!

 

[ChrisCunard]

Bad management?

Poor fleet maintenance?

Too many overheads?

Crippling union involvement?

Limited route structure?

That pretty much sums it up...