How would you do this trip? rtw? series of one ways?

[Himeno]

Here's one for the brains' trust, @Himeno.

I just dummied into the OneWorld RTW planning and booking tool this itinerary:

MEL-LHR-DOH-DFW-MEX-DFW-ANC-DFW-CLT-DFW-NRT-DEL-CMB-HKG-SYD-BNE-PER. That's the full 16 sectors and comes up as a valid DONEx.

I'm working on the assumption of flying QF9 MEL(xPER)-LHR.

According to the 'touch Asia' rule between Australia and Europe zones, I would appear to go into Asia twice (and I'm using the full four sectors in the latter part).

Is this suggestive, do you think, that the 'touch Asia' rule, irrespective of actual contact with Asia - and in the light of my recent experience of getting a DONE4 where once a DONE5 would have been the classification of that itinerary, may now be dead with the advent of QF9/10?

If so, the rules are not yet updated:
https://www.oneworld.com/documents/...ules+doc/8ed08d57-69e3-4d8b-bd69-d346ec820edf

That would come under allowing 2 entry's of Asia where 1 is a transit without stopover between SWP and Europe.

 

[JohnM]

It makes for some interesting options.

 

[RooFlyer]

That would come under allowing 2 entry's of Asia where 1 is a transit without stopover between SWP and Europe.

So the transit without stopover ( and counting and not counting as a continent) is only allowed if you return to Asia? Otherwise it's counted as a full continent visit?

 

[fifo]

It makes for some interesting options.

What's the technical difference between a transit and a transit without stopover?

 

[JohnM]

What's the technical difference between a transit and a transit without stopover?

It does sound confusing. However, I think what @Himeno means is that under Rule 4e here: https://www.oneworld.com/documents/...ules+doc/8ed08d57-69e3-4d8b-bd69-d346ec820edf you can enter and depart Asia twice and therefore use one pair to transit without stopping over (eg. on QF1 & 2 SYD-LHR-SYD via SIN as was, and will soon again be, that route).

The other entry/exit pair could be used to enter the Asian zone and travel around within it on the up to four allowable within-zone flights. 'Transit' is probably a confusing choice of word to describe that scenario as it does tend to imply skipping over the zone.

 

[Himeno]

It does sound confusing. However, I think what @Himeno means is that under Rule 4e here: https://www.oneworld.com/documents/...ules+doc/8ed08d57-69e3-4d8b-bd69-d346ec820edf you can enter and depart Asia twice and therefore use one pair to transit without stopping over (eg. on QF1 & 2 SYD-LHR-SYD via SIN as was, and will soon again be, that route).

The other entry/exit pair could be used to enter the Asian zone and travel around within it on the up to four allowable within-zone flights. 'Transit' is probably a confusing choice of word to describe that scenario as it does tend to imply skipping over the zone.

The wording would likely be to prevent people from doing something like SYD-xHKG-xNRT-LHR and make them do something more like MEL-xHKG-MAD for the transit.

 

[fifo]

Thanks, that's clear as mud!
RTWs arent the easiest to understand in general. Let alone the intricate rules that could massively change an itinerary.
It's almost as if there should be an accurate online tool to help you plan

 

[Himeno]

Thanks, that's clear as mud!
RTWs arent the easiest to understand in general. Let alone the intricate rules that could massively change an itinerary.
It's almost as if there should be an accurate online tool to help you plan

There are a few people here, and some others in the oneworld forum on flyertalk, who understand the oneworld explorer rules quite well.

 

[JohnM]

Thanks, that's clear as mud!
RTWs arent the easiest to understand in general. Let alone the intricate rules that could massively change an itinerary.
It's almost as if there should be an accurate online tool to help you plan

I don't think that xONEx rules are fundamentally intricate or hard to understand (16 sectors max, E-W or W-E continuing between continental zones, maximum 4 sectors in each zone except for 6 in N America, backtracking permitted within continental zones, only one trans-con permitted where relevant). The 'touch Asia' between SW Pacific and Europe, two entry/exits in some zones and sub-zones in the Middle East are I think minor subtleties that should not cause deep problems in most cases.

Sure, there are a few things that might trip you up like some carriers insisting on stopovers under some obscure circumstances (as I recently discovered with QR at DOH) but generally I think it's fairly straightforward once the basics are understood.

From previous comments @Himeno has a poor opinion of the online tool (oneworld) but, again, IMO it gets the guts of things right and is useful for planning or playing around.

 

[JohnM]

Just a little more on the Asia matter.

I dummied this in the RTW tool: SYD-SIN-DEL-LHR-MAD-JFK-LAX-NRT-CMB-HKG-SYD to test whether doing 'part' of Asia on the way out and another 'part' of it on the way back would be OK. It comes up as a valid itinerary.

So, in other words, one entry/exit pair for Asia does not have to be a transit without stopover.

 

[fifo]

I don't think that xONEx rules are fundamentally intricate or hard to understand (16 sectors max, E-W or W-E continuing between continental zones, maximum 4 sectors in each zone except for 6 in N America, backtracking permitted within continental zones, only one trans-con permitted where relevant). The 'touch Asia' between SW Pacific and Europe, two entry/exits in some zones and sub-zones in the Middle East are I think minor subtleties that should not cause deep problems in most cases.

Sure, there are a few things that might trip you up like some carriers insisting on stopovers under some obscure circumstances (as I recently discovered with QR at DOH) but generally I think it's fairly straightforward once the basics are understood.

From previous comments @Himeno has a poor opinion of the online tool (oneworld) but, again, IMO it gets the guts of things right and is useful for planning or playing around.

I have to disagree John, the oneworld tool is currently for me at least effectively useless as it won't give a final price under any carrier. It's also tricky, doesnt incorporate all the rules (from other flyertalk threads and here) and is a poor example of programming and UI.

As for the rules being easy, i'm new to this, you have what 15-20 under your belt? Wouldn't the person who is new to it be a better judge of if its difficultly to understand? Of course, when I have done a few, i'll probably be wondering what I ever thought was so complex. I agree the basic rules are easy to understand, however what might seem like a simple booking, can get tripped up by any of the little exception rules. Then turning that into the most optimised itinerary for any one situation, without a fully working tool, with all rules incorporated is highly frustrating.

 

[JohnM]

I have to disagree John, the oneworld tool is currently for me at least effectively useless as it won't give a final price under any carrier. It's also tricky, doesnt incorporate all the rules (from other flyertalk threads and here) and is a poor example of programming and UI.

As for the rules being easy, i'm new to this, you have what 15-20 under your belt? Wouldn't the person who is new to it be a better judge of if its difficultly to understand? Of course, when I have done a few, i'll probably be wondering what I ever thought was so complex. I agree the basic rules are easy to understand, however what might seem like a simple booking, can get tripped up by any of the little exception rules. Then turning that into the most optimised itinerary for any one situation, without a fully working tool, with all rules incorporated is highly frustrating.

Fair enough. It's just that it's not been my experience to have significant problems with the tool as long as I haven't breached the core 16 & 4-6 sectors and E-W or W-E rules. Maybe it's because I'm choosing fairly straightforward itineraries even though I max them out.

I had the recent experience for the first time of it not ticketing after seemingly pricing OK so I phoned QF and booked. That's when it became evident that QR wouldn't allow transit without stopover in DOH on one part. It initially confused the QF consultant until the penny dropped. I don't know that it was an explicit rule; rather I think he deduced what was happening when he couldn't book a D seat even though he could see it. Once he chose the next day, it all fell into place.

 

[RooFlyer]

That's when it became evident that QR wouldn't allow transit without stopover in DOH on one part.

Can you clarify that? Do you mean that the OW tool / QR wouldn't allow you to only 'transit' Doha, (that is, depart <24hrs after arriving) but made you 'stopover' (>24hrs between flights)?

In my up-coming DONE4 I am indeed 'transiting' DOH (arrive QR from DFW 16:50, depart on QR for FCO 7:50 the next day). Not only that - they are giving me free entry, accommodation and dinner overnight via their 'STPC' scheme.

Planned on the OW tool, but booked through TA.

 

[Himeno]

QR love "married segments" where availability in a given fare class might appear to be available, but can't be used because of where you are connecting to.

eg, SYD-xDOH-BUD
SYD-DOH might show D5 on a given date, and it will let you book D for the non stop, but when you try to add the DOH-BUD, the availability for SYD-DOH becomes D0 and it won't let you book in D, even though the same flight still has availability as a stand alone or connecting to some other city.
QR might show SYD-DOH-BUD as D0/D0, while at the same time, show SYD-DOH-AMS for the same date as D3/D5, and MEL-DOH-BUD for the same date as D5/D4.
All the flights in question have D availability, but QR won't let you book some of them because of which flights are connected.

The online booking tool is fine for 'simple' plans like SYD-LAX-JFK-FCO-HEL-NRT-SYD, but gets more 'annoying' the more 'complex' you make it.
I use the oneworld timetable (not the booking tool) together with expert flyer (or other site to check availability) to plan out the trip, then send it to a travel agent to book

 

[fifo]

I use the oneworld timetable (not the booking tool) together with expert flyer (or other site to check availability) to plan out the trip, then send it to a travel agent to book

Himeno, this is what I will do in future I believe.
- What timetable do you use? The individual airlines websites or?
- What agent do you use?
- So you just check expert flyer for D or L etc availability? Does this get released ~11 months prior for all airlines as well?

 

[JohnM]

Can you clarify that? Do you mean that the OW tool / QR wouldn't allow you to only 'transit' Doha, (that is, depart <24hrs after arriving) but made you 'stopover' (>24hrs between flights)?

In my up-coming DONE4 I am indeed 'transiting' DOH (arrive QR from DFW 16:50, depart on QR for FCO 7:50 the next day). Not only that - they are giving me free entry, accommodation and dinner overnight via their 'STPC' scheme.

Planned on the OW tool, but booked through TA.

The tool gave it as a valid itinerary transiting DOH without stopover, priced it but then produced a message when I tried to ticket it, saying words to the effect 'can't ticket this itinerary now'. Whatever the words were, they implied that it was a temporary system glitch but when I retried several times over the next few days and kept getting the same response I gave up and phoned QF. Once it became apparent what was stalling the process, I moved the DOH-DME flight to the next day.

Of course, as I related before, the price dropped $2K, seemingly giving me a DONE4 price for what should have been a DONE5 itinerary. So I came away very happy that the glitch had occurred.

Judging from what @Himeno says above, I guess I was just unlucky to choose a combination (LAX-DOH-DME) that is either generally a married segment or just happened to be that day. On the other hand, you appear to have been lucky and not caught by a married segment rule.

 

[RooFlyer]

So you just check expert flyer for D or L etc availability? Does this get released ~11 months prior for all airlines as well?

Personally, I don't use EF (I consider my TA as my EF ). As long as you book a few months out you shouldn't have any problem with D availability, except on congested routes such as SYD-LAX with QF. You can get a TA to book way out of course, then have them watch availability and alert you to pay and ticket when things get tight.

 

[equus]

and not caught by a married segment rule.

The behaviour being talked about is not a rule, but a yield management function of the particular airline. It has nothing to do with booking a OWE, just the availability of the fare bucket (in this case D) for the chosen segments. They probably play similar games with other fare classes as well, and for straightforward return flights as well.

QR are not the only ones who play such games. JL was doing the same for a DCIR26 trying to book from HNL to HKG via NRT. Initially all was fine, but then they decided to play the same game and remove availability for the NRT-HKG. They are not really so smart though - as it ended up costing them. Simply booked the NRT-HKG using the CX codeshare that was available on the same flight - so they ended up losing the direct booking to the codeshare.