I wonder had JASA's continued ...

[legroom]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

.... I'd also suggest QF figured the loss of mASA's were a small change. Apart from folks like us who know what they were and the value, how many average, toaster buying, public would have used these things on a regular basis? I'm willing to bet few...

Yet to meet / hear of mASA outside the AFF context - ever !

Well said !

From a former Hoyts-tickets / Frying Pans hoarder ....

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

But in many cases, the Qantas imposed charges were higher for an xASA than a classic award. IIRC in some cases they were considerably more. In that sense, the awarding of SCs were no different to JQ bundles.

So either JQ has got it wrong with their bundle policy (in which case why are they still offering them), or JQ has it right (and Qf can't really argue the SCs were 'free' or cost them money).

Makes perfect sense to me and Bundling is the big buzz thing in the industry anyway. I'd say JQ has it right in this instance (words hardly ever written I know ).

Suggests also that if the "cost" of fees was higher for xASA's (I don't recall myself) that QF had, in fact, bundled that in though honestly I'd always figured it as the same as your classic award rate which was the whole point.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Makes perfect sense to me and Bundling is the big buzz thing in the industry anyway. I'd say JQ has it right in this instance (words hardly ever written I know ).

Suggests also that if the "cost" of fees was higher for xASA's (I don't recall myself) that QF had, in fact, bundled that in though honestly I'd always figured it as the same as your classic award rate which was the whole point.

Points wise yes it was the same. But the qantas imposed charges were often (not always) higher. Someone will be able to provide some figures, but IIRC $100+ more wasn't uncommon?

 

[kermatu]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Not the right thread I suspect but I miss mASAs and would love to have something back - even if it was limited to SCs earn (no points) and with an additional cost/fee/tax - say 10% higher than a classic. Surely encouraging people to achieve and maintain status pays for itself in the long run. Otherwise folks will just fly BFOD and like me now, try some other carriers.

 

[trixydoza]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

There was some evidence QF might have been trying to price the extra value of a JASA.

A mildly interesting empirical observation that might be useful in determining co-payment amounts for simple UASAs:

Looking at three different 16k bookings (CBR-MEL, BNE-SYD, MEL-ADL), the difference between the UASA and Classic co-payments is $69.50 in each case.
Looking at three different 24k bookings (SYD-HBA, SYD-ADL, BNE-TSV), the difference between the UASA and Classic co-payments is $107.00 in each case.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I would argue that MASA has a lower yield to QF compared with pure classic awards (out of the same inventory, as you point out, be it X,U or P) because, as you do state, there is a cost to QF to allocate points and SC on those MASA's vs the none for the Classic Award, which thius to me suggests the "cost" of the points/SC's earned is a (small) reduction in yield of the MASA compared to the Classic Award.

mASA was likely lowest in the food chain in terms of value to QFF. But we all agree QFF messed up by not re-adjusting the mASA terms and with that adjusting they effectively killed off a % of members who earned medium to high numbers of FF points and preferred to burn them on mASAs. And now - with no real outlet for QFF burning - it makes more sense for these members to switch their points to another alliance where the value proposition makes more sense. This means switching their credit cards... which QFF has locked up in a way that once a customer leaves the QFF system - they can't get back in without significant pain.

Additional considerations would have been:
- How much do partner airlines pay in cash for that same award seat inventory.
- Minimum award inventory available to partner airlines / impact on agreements.
- How does a member taking a mASA seat impact a potentially higher status pax trying to redeem that seat at a classic level (many factors involved).

However the real 'AH HA!' moment is when you look at every Qantas flight and the cost to redeem an award ticket through all of it's partners and the value of a point on each of it's partners. Assuming points are just as easy to earn on all partners - QFF is not the most cost effective on any level or in any class. BA is the clear winner for QF domestic redemptions. Dare I say - QFF is doing all it can to keep other Oneworld programs out of the AU market for credit cards (likely a driver behind Citibanks overnight culling of BA).

I hope that lurkers reading these posts can learn from experiences of other members and plan their credit card/flight earning accordingly to plan for the future.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

mASA was likely lowest in the food chain in terms of value to QFF. But we all agree QFF messed up by not re-adjusting the mASA terms and with that adjusting they effectively killed off a % of members who earned medium to high numbers of FF points and preferred to burn them on mASAs. And now - with no real outlet for QFF burning - it makes more sense for these members to switch their points to another alliance where the value proposition makes more sense. This means switching their credit cards... which QFF has locked up in a way that once a customer leaves the QFF system - they can't get back in without significant pain.

Toasters.

Sorry.. you know I had to !!

More seriously though I think QFF sorry QF Loyalty are factoring in, as someone posted earlier the general apathy of the oz public to change (it's all too hard) - as you point out, and that the small numbers (relatively) of affected people here (or rather, affected who notice and give a damn). I reckon even if it's in the tens of thousands, it's still small % of the overall QFF membership. And QF Loyalty, I reckon, make most of their dosh on the back of the casual flyers/toaster buying types who blow their points on poor value choices (like my own bloody sister, but that's a whole other story!! LOL). We joke about toasters and vouchers and the like, but I bet the numbers of people who think "Well my hard earned points can't take the family to bali/OOL/Disneyland but I can get a mixmaster and a couple of woolies vouchers" are probably higher than one suspects.


I've related before about a friend of mine who, 18 months ago when she thought "the sky is falling at QF" and thought the airline would go bust and her FF points were going to go away went and cashed in 192k (so she claimed to me) points on woolies vouchers...... I rolled all 4 of my eyes.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Toasters.

Sorry.. you know I had to !!

More seriously though I think QFF sorry QF Loyalty are factoring in, as someone posted earlier the general apathy of the oz public to change (it's all too hard) - as you point out, and that the small numbers (relatively) of affected people here (or rather, affected who notice and give a damn). I reckon even if it's in the tens of thousands, it's still small % of the overall QFF membership. And QF Loyalty, I reckon, make most of their dosh on the back of the casual flyers/toaster buying types who blow their points on poor value choices (like my own bloody sister, but that's a whole other story!! LOL). We joke about toasters and vouchers and the like, but I bet the numbers of people who think "Well my hard earned points can't take the family to bali/OOL/Disneyland but I can get a mixmaster and a couple of woolies vouchers" are probably higher than one suspects.


I've related before about a friend of mine who, 18 months ago when she thought "the sky is falling at QF" and thought the airline would go bust and her FF points were going to go away went and cashed in 192k (so she claimed to me) points on woolies vouchers...... I rolled all 4 of my eyes.

Hey I've redeemed QF points for Golf World vouchers in the past - and it made sense to as well!

Signed my sister up to the amex velocity plat card under me. Her first question was: "Can I use points on something other than flying?". While I question weather we have any DNA match - there's certainly a demographic that see it as a free toaster every few years for doing nothing more than they otherwise would be through CC spend.

Points aside - QF Loyalty do a lot of things very well and this is reflected through the high quality of internal talent and recent financial results. No business is by any means perfect and I think it's important to highlight that many comments on this forum are frustrations of what QFF could be doing better - rather than what the failures are.

 

[medhead]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Fair points here



I would argue that MASA has a lower yield to QF compared with pure classic awards (out of the same inventory, as you point out, be it X,U or P) because, as you do state, there is a cost to QF to allocate points and SC on those MASA's vs the none for the Classic Award, which thius to me suggests the "cost" of the points/SC's earned is a (small) reduction in yield of the MASA compared to the Classic Award.

For those that used the points to pay for the taxes in a MASA (IIRC that became an option at some point to "pay" the whole thing in points) then the value of the taxes, which QF of course does not keep, ups the yield on the points paid to QF (unless I have my math inside out which is always possible )



I'm not sure who has suggested points+pay ("p+p") equals the "new" ASA - certainly not me. I was comparing the "pay for flight with points"(and only points) pricing for seats (as opposed to awards) as the comparision as those seats paid for with points would get you the SC and FF points as with the "old" ASA's (these always existed of course, except for the what we call the MASA's suggesting those purchased where award inventory existed and one could thus get the same seat at a lower "price" for the ASA).

I know one AFF poster who would possibly use p+p over a classic award, but I digress

re "There are numerous threads that provide testimony to the lack of business and first awards. If they are prepared to sell a given seat for the price of a classic award then they should be prepared to sell the same seat at a higher price that compensates for the cost of the points and SC." - Some would argue that they do this already with the "new" ASA, but of course that's not at all what you mean. I could certainly see a situation where QF may be smart to offer a "bundled" approach, much like your JQ "Max" bundles - eg:

eg:
ABC-XYZ:

Y classic award 10k points
Y classic award+earn points/SC 15k points
J classic award 20k points
J classic award+earn points/SC 30k points
F classic award 30k points
F classic award+earn points/SC 40k points

(or whatever, obviously these numbers are just randomly picked out by me). It could potentially even be dynamic pricing based on factors such as the product involved (eg: QF J trans tasman on the 737 vs "QF" J on the EK A380 same route).

As you wrote it could be a win/win to price these "bundles" out to see how much we will value it to buy. I wouldn't have an issue with that at all. It would be smart too I think. I think QF just got jack of essentially "giving away" points/SC for the same points price as your classic awards but weren't innovative enough to think "well fine, if they want this, pay a bit extra..." (or possibly they are, but there's a limitation in Amadeus or whatever GDS they are using these days that makes this difficult, I don't know)


re "Those people will most likely go back to the classic awards, thereby decreasing yield on redeemed seats. As a business decision, it seems dubious." - I disagree. Remember the classic awards are offered on flights where QF thinks it will get zero yield from that seat in the first place by offering it up as an award seat (ie: will go unsold according to yield/revenue management projections) thus "selling" it for a classic award price is still all positive yield revenue to QF as far as I can tell. They'd rather get something rather than nothing as it were.

I certainly agree that in the vast majority of cases, p+p is a poor value propisition for most savvy flyers (such as the membership here) but QF is clearly pushing this as an option. I'm thinking mostly to reduce their liability of points.

Just a couple of points, rather than a detailed reply.

MASA were mostly priced higher than classic awards, the complete unknown is Qantas calculated cost of the SC/points versus that price premium. Given cheap status was held up as a reason, it is probably a fair assumption that the price was lower than cost. But when you have a popular product that is costing more than the return, isn't the first business decision to increase the price. Especially when it is popular with a group that are causing you to sell lots of points to other businesses.

Otherwise, a Bundle for classic awards is another option. Again, something that has been mentioned. Overall, there are people who are prepared to pay for SC earning (and maybe points). Tells us how much and they might just buy them, assuming they can get the classic award. Limited availability is the key point about linking a "bundle" to classic awards, it has that scarify factor. Then they can increase the yield on the seats they don't expect to sell that are released as classic awards. They can even set the price that they are prepared to take.

It terms of using points for the co-pay on a MASA, IIRC that is priced on the same $/point ratio as points plus pay.

I don't think anyone is saying points plus pay is equal to ASA. I used the word "comparable"; you used the term current incarnation. Qantas wants people to think they're equal, I just don't buy that view. I think current incarnation, in some ways supports the Qantas position that they are equal. Yes, a pedantic point.

Alas I would argue that you have not done enough research into classic awards. Last May classic awards were available for 18K point and roughly $AU100 in Y SYD-AKL. Points and pay based on the sale fare were 15K points and roughly $AU100 ( and earned 20 SC and 1750 points as a SG). If you want a proper comparison the AA awards would have likely been 10K AA points and a few US$. But the existing stash of QF points needs to find a good use. And the lack of international options from PER challenges the upgrade usage route.

Happy wandering

Fred

Well actually, I'm well aware of those possibilities. RichardMel alluded to it in his reply to me. Of course, you're not privy to the PMs that I've made. (I was trying to keep the cheaper than classic awards points plus pay under my hat, so to speak.) But the fact that points plus pay can be had cheaper than classic awards highlights the lie that was told in killing MASA. Maybe it doesn't matter because few people like to fly in Y.

BTW, look at multi city options.

Edit: in my defence, I also did say full priced points plus pay.

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Points aside - QF Loyalty do a lot of things very well and this is reflected through the high quality of internal talent and recent financial results. No business is by any means perfect and I think it's important to highlight that many comments on this forum are frustrations of what QFF could be doing better - rather than what the failures are.

Couldn't agree more. I will be gutted when I lose my P1 status. :-( I have been pretty well looked after by QF over the years, and despite my odd grumble, the service has been very good. Dealing with BA only highlights just how good QF is.

 

[Kangol]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

When has this happened? Every time I've been over there and used AA for dom flights with my QF WP number in the system this has never happened.

The last time I've had a domestic complimentary upgrade was in 2012. I've had "EXP" recognition a couple of times in Y (ie free snack and "coughtail"), but the last time was last year and on a small regional plane, with the 1-2 layout. I think the lady gave me some snacks and an alcoholic drink - can't remember all the details?

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Who booked mASAs in Y? What poor value. In premium classes they were ALWAYS more expensive than a classic award, and by a significant amount. I spent thousands on co-pays as I wanted to maximise my points. Now they're lucky to see a few hundred from me.
Que sera sera.

 

[trixydoza]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

In premium classes they were ALWAYS more expensive than a classic award, and by a significant amount.

Depends on how you valued your points. CBR-SYD-HBA cost 2/3 the points of a Classic, and AKL-SYD-LAX or ADL-SYD-SIN were also pretty good value that way.

 

[medhead]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Who booked mASAs in Y? What poor value. In premium classes they were ALWAYS more expensive than a classic award, and by a significant amount. I spent thousands on co-pays as I wanted to maximise my points. Now they're lucky to see a few hundred from me.
Que sera sera.

I may have done a domestic XASA, solely on the basis of not wanting to spend the cash of an expensive Y fare. Perhaps my version of a toaster.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Sorry international premium classes. Domestic wasn't great value either IMHO.

 

[straitman]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Who booked mASAs in Y? What poor value. In premium classes they were ALWAYS more expensive than a classic award, and by a significant amount. I spent thousands on co-pays as I wanted to maximise my points. Now they're lucky to see a few hundred from me.
Que sera sera.

Sorry international premium classes. Domestic wasn't great value either IMHO.

Probably should read nearly always.

One of my last mASAs was MEL-HKG and it was considerably cheaper than a classic.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Totally do not want to beat this poor horse further, but just wanted to address one thing

I don't think anyone is saying points plus pay is equal to ASA. I used the word "comparable"; you used the term current incarnation. Qantas wants people to think they're equal, I just don't buy that view. I think current incarnation, in some ways supports the Qantas position that they are equal. Yes, a pedantic point.

I'm interested in your statement that QF "wants people to think [ ASA and P+P ] are equal" - I've never had that impression at all from anything I've seen from QF. I certainly don't see how anyone could think the 2 could be equal given, at its simplist, one involved points purely, and the other is a combined cash+poiints option. I always saw the QF marketing on this (as other airlines have done) as "if you don't have enough points for that award, you can use P+P as a way to get there" (conveniently lowering QF's liability, generating some revenue and making the customer feel warm and fuzzy that they have gotten value out of their points).

I'd always gotten the impression that QF wanted people to think that the current ASA offerings were equivalent to the old MASA offerings, which we know is baloney in respect of the previous offerings of MASA at classic award rates/fare buckets - clearly a much different animal which many took advantage of.

I do agree that QF's "reasons"/"excuses" for removing MASAs were lame,but what does one expect a PR outfit to do. Admit what anyone plainly knows? spin spin spin.

I'm sure we agree on that

 

[medhead]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Qantas and their representatives have been know to say that Points plus pay are Anyseat awards, when people (i.e. me) said anyseat awards no longer exist. This was at a point in time that ASA was still defined in the QFF T&Cs. No need to go on flogging a dead horse in the back paddock, so I'll leave it there.

 

[marki]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

JohnK I'm not sure why we have to go through this every time. You've previously admitted to doing status runs (on cheap CX fares in Asia from memory) so the selective moral high horse stuff wears a bit thin.

Never mind JohnK my memory is good but short The point your trying to make is still valid however you look at it. High horse morals aside.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I do agree that QF's "reasons"/"excuses" for removing MASAs were lame,but what does one expect a PR outfit to do. Admit what anyone plainly knows? spin spin spin.

PR is not PR without credibility. In order to have a successful PR campaign or ongoing relationship, credibility is a central plank.

A good PR practitioner - from board level downwards - will look at proposed messaging and say 'hey - my customers won't accept this'. And then they work with the company to come up with a solution. This includes removing spin when the spin looks silly.

PR is there for the good times and bad. If all your messages are spin, no one will believe you when you need them to in a time of crisis.