Incident on QF706 ADL to CBR

[tdimdad]

You and me both.

Hold it, we need a bigger laundry machine here!
A concur with RooFlyer. From the professional viewpoint this may seem small - perhaps even routine if it's been rehearsed in simulations dozens of times - but for a passenger not in the know, anything and everything seemingly abnormal can trigger the prayers...

 

[AIRwin]

Aircraft was VH-VXL and has now been ferried from MEL to BNE as QF6122:
VH-VXL - Boeing 737-838 - Qantas - Flightradar24

Looks like aircraft has completed a test flight this morning as QF6114

 

[dajop]

Media reports what They are told. Not for them to discount passengers stories.

Whilst I agree with you that this was not a "non-event" (and would prefer not to be on such a flight), it is a bit naive to assume that "media reports what they are told". Media selectively report what they are told, in a way that enhances their readership and/or fits their narrative.

But kudos to news limited, the story linked in post #1 did seem fairly balanced and not as sensationalist as they usually are. Only one reference to screaming, and that was a baby screaming at that!

 

[jb747]

Whilst I agree with you that this was not a "non-event" (and would prefer not to be on such a flight), it is a bit naive to assume that "media reports what they are told". Media selectively report what they are told, in a way that enhances their readership and/or fits their narrative.

I was wondering whether I should reply to that earlier comment. I've seen the media at first hand, after a couple of incidents. They home in on the loudest person they can find, with no regard whatsoever to accuracy, or in one case, truth.

This should not have been anything like a 'real' depressurisation. If the cabin were bleeding up at 2,000 fpm, you would certainly notice it. By way of contrast, QF30 climbed at 100,000 fpm (that's the correct number of zeroes). A normal descent with speedbrakes would give about 5,000 fpm. The cabin would have been low, perhaps 3,000 feet. So, it would have taken the cabin about five minutes to reach the mask activation point. Coming down, you'd need a bit over two minutes to get below the mask trip level.

So, if you want some questions...
1. How long was it between the second pack failure and the start of the descent?
2. What was the rate of climb of the cabin?
3. What was the average rate of descent?
4. Did the masks trip automatically or manually.

 

[Stevo.1702]

Would a pilot consider the repercussions of diverting to a smaller airport that may not have servicing facilities? MQL was a lot closer than MEL. Would it have been considered? Or by going to MEL does it indicate that the aircraft did not need to land ASAP?

In my head some things would mean land As Soon As Possible, others may mean land As Soon As Practical. What is practical will probably depend on what airport would make life easier after landing and is it worth the extra time to get there based on what emergency is being experienced.

 

[dajop]

I've seen the media at first hand, after a couple of incidents. They home in on the loudest person they can find, with no regard whatsoever to accuracy, or in one case, truth..

Yes, different industry, but I've seen them at work, and you are absolutely right. They have a narrative and they have a need to grab peoples attention and be interesting enough to hold that attention. With political stories, there's also usually an agenda as well as the narrative.

Having experienced it first hand, and brought up on a staple of Littlemore's MediaWatch and Sitch's Frontline, I'm deeply suspicious of everything I read, watch or hear in media - bit commercial, government owned or social media. Sad I know.

 

[RooFlyer]

I was wondering whether I should reply to that earlier comment. I've seen the media at first hand, after a couple of incidents. They home in on the loudest person they can find, with no regard whatsoever to accuracy, or in one case, truth.

This should not have been anything like a 'real' depressurisation. If the cabin were bleeding up at 2,000 fpm, you would certainly notice it. By way of contrast, QF30 climbed at 100,000 fpm (that's the correct number of zeroes). A normal descent with speedbrakes would give about 5,000 fpm. The cabin would have been low, perhaps 3,000 feet. So, it would have taken the cabin about five minutes to reach the mask activation point. Coming down, you'd need a bit over two minutes to get below the mask trip level.

So, if you want some questions...
1. How long was it between the second pack failure and the start of the descent?
2. What was the rate of climb of the cabin?
3. What was the average rate of descent?
4. Did the masks trip automatically or manually.

That's all very well, but all the people in the cheap seats know is that there is something "WRONG!, we have to put these masks on (presumably to breath, else we can't breath?) and we are a long way up in the air and going down faster than we ever had before. Is the pilot in control, or fighting it? - don't know - never been in this situation before. Somethings wrong!" and so on.

I used to work underground. If I took you and a bunch of others down to my work place, I reckon you'd be pooping yourself when the explosions went off nearby and you weren't ready for it, - its still very loud, and you can feel it and then smell the gas. Taking the school teachers down was the best bit. It wasn't just the girls who screamed.

Down there, once you'd changed underwear, you'd be wondering if you needed to put on your 'self rescuer' mask when you smelled the gas, scared about walking under all those big loose rocks and dodging 50 tonne trucks as they back up in the dark. All while the noise is akin to standing next to two jackhammers going full tilt. I wouldn't be telling you its all OK, because I'm not with you, and because I know there isn't a problem. OK, that bits not true - we keep underground visitors on a tight leash, but first timers still end up somewhere between worried to terrified. Please forgive those in their first time 'air incident' if they have similar reactions.

Having experienced it first hand, and brought up on a staple of Littlemore's MediaWatch and Sitch's Frontline, I'm deeply suspicious of everything I read, watch or hear in media - bit commercial, government owned or social media. Sad I know.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as contemptuous of the media as anyone else. I've never been in an occurrence which was reported and then seen anything like what happened in the reports. Its just that I think that, absent making it up (which is not out of the question), you can't blame them for reporting the juicy bits of what people have told them. Otherwise they are 'in the company's pocket concealing what happened'.

 

[Pushka]

That's all very well, but all the people in the cheap seats know is that there is something "WRONG!, we have to put these masks on (presumably to breath, else we can't breath?) and we are a long way up in the air and going down faster than we ever had before. Is the pilot in control, or fighting it? - don't know - never been in this situation before. Somethings wrong!" and so on.

I used to work underground. If I took you and a bunch of others down to my work place, I reckon you'd be pooping yourself when the explosions went off nearby and you weren't ready for it, - its still very loud, and you can feel it and then smell the gas. Taking the school teachers down was the best bit. It wasn't just the girls who screamed.

Down there, once you'd changed underwear, you'd be wondering if you needed to put on your 'self rescuer' mask when you smelled the gas, scared about walking under all those big loose rocks and dodging 50 tonne trucks as they back up in the dark. All while the noise is akin to standing next to two jackhammers going full tilt. I wouldn't be telling you its all OK, because I'm not with you, and because I know there isn't a problem. OK, that bits not true - we keep underground visitors on a tight leash, but first timers still end up somewhere between worried to terrified. Please forgive those in their first time 'air incident' if they have similar reactions.



Don't get me wrong, I'm as contemptuous of the media as anyone else. I've never been in an occurrence which was reported and then seen anything like what happened in the reports. Its just that I think that, absent making it up (which is not out of the question), you can't blame them for reporting the juicy bits of what people have told them. Otherwise they are 'in the company's pocket concealing what happened'.

You’ve totally captured my thinking but said it better.
Average Joe Blow traveller does not know the relative risk; they just know that safety procedures have commenced as per the emergency briefing and how are they to know what will happen next.

 

[Antoallison]

Whilst I agree with you that this was not a "non-event" (and would prefer not to be on such a flight), it is a bit naive to assume that "media reports what they are told". Media selectively report what they are told, in a way that enhances their readership and/or fits their narrative.

But kudos to news limited, the story linked in post #1 did seem fairly balanced and not as sensationalist as they usually are. Only one reference to screaming, and that was a baby screaming at that!

Media no longer analyse - they distort or exaggerate, partly because of the speed that news has to be delivered these days. We are now talking minutes not the next day ..so no time for an in depth report and fact checking before a journo files their story.

The other issue is headline grabbing content ..Plane crashes are always big news, but car crashes (which kill more people) do not often get reported on.

 

[jb747]

Somehow this seems to have become a competition. That wasn't intended. You won't frighten me underground 'cos I would never willingly go there in the first place. Wasn't too keen on the day I spent on a submarine either.

Passenger reactions notwithstanding though, this is still a very minor aviation event. I gave you some questions for our mythical journalist, the answers to which would tell you how well, or otherwise, it was handled. Another that you might ask, is whether anything like this has happened previously, and if so, how often. That might lead to questions about the sense of the MEL.

You've most certainly experienced the same descent rate though. Full speed brake at 300 knots or so is a common profile.

 

[RooFlyer]

Somehow this seems to have become a competition

Not a competition. I was just using an analogy to show that someone in calm control of one unusual situation is probably not going to be so calm in one where they are not familiar, even though the level of risk is about the same.

This to enhance the point that passengers will be panicked in any unusual occurrence in the air and just saying "nothing to see here, nothing to be worried about" wont change it.

 

[AIRwin]

Looks like aircraft has completed a test flight this morning as QF6114

Aircraft has re-entered service today operating BNE-MEL as QF613

 

[Mrmaxwell]

Regardless of what the facts are once you have a smartphone pic of deployed oxygen masks on a commercial flight it is a news story, facts are left a long way behind.

 

[panpan]

Hold it, we need a bigger laundry machine here!
A concur with RooFlyer. From the professional viewpoint this may seem small - perhaps even routine if it's been rehearsed in simulations dozens of times - but for a passenger not in the know, anything and everything seemingly abnormal can trigger the prayers...

OK guys so I was on that flight - no joke. I am an engineer with 20+ years working with the air force and I have a reasonable number of flights under my belt.
I actually appreciate the sentiment of these posts - you guys are alright.
What you don't consider is the irrational hormonal response that fear brings out. I can tell you that for some on that flight, it was a life-changing event. For me personally, I understood the situation - but the feeling of panic rising and ebbing every 20 seconds or so during the 4 minute descent is something I will never forget.
I rang my wife during the incident. Luckily she didn't pick up. I still haven't told the kids and don't think I ever will.
Just thought you'd like to know.

 

[JessicaTam]

OK guys so I was on that flight - no joke. I am an engineer with 20+ years working with the air force and I have a reasonable number of flights under my belt.
I actually appreciate the sentiment of these posts - you guys are alright.
What you don't consider is the irrational hormonal response that fear brings out. I can tell you that for some on that flight, it was a life-changing event. For me personally, I understood the situation - but the feeling of panic rising and ebbing every 20 seconds or so during the 4 minute descent is something I will never forget.
I rang my wife during the incident. Luckily she didn't pick up. I still haven't told the kids and don't think I ever will.
Just thought you'd like to know.

Thanks for sharing your experience @panpan. And welcome to AFF.

 

[DC3]

Thanks for sharing your experience @panpan. And welcome to AFF.

Welcome from me, also, and I hope that you stay around to contribute further. But not necessarily being part of any more hair-raising incidents.

 

[panpan]

Thanks Jessica. To be a bit lighter about it - I actually had a bite of ham and cheese toastie in my mouth when the masks were deployed. Everyone had just got breakfast and a beautiful sunrise was just starting. I remember thinking - is this my last meal? Really?

 

[panpan]

Thanks guys. My experience has been mainly observer on Orion P3Cs out from Edinburgh AFB with 10/11SQN - great guys. Now I am an engineering manager the redeye to Canberra to speak to ADF customer is a common flight. Always, always Qantas.

One thing you may be interested in is the use (I think) of an emergency pressurisation system...when we got down low, the air coming out of the overseat vents was warm - I realise now the pilot might have had access to some kind of emergency air bleed system on the engines?
No one complained about the hot air

 

[Quickstatus]

@panpan
Welcome
Just would like to explore your experience a bit more if I may.

1)What was your initial thoughts when the O2 masks deployed
2)What was the cabin crew/ pilot announcement when the O2 masks deployed, or was the announcement a recording
3)The cabin safety briefing for passengers say to pull down FIRMLY on the mask. Did you do this? I have always wondered how firmly is firmly.
4) Did you get a burning or chemical smell in your O2 mask (I believe in the 737, the firm pull of the O2 masks triggers a chemical reaction which releases oxygen gas (unlike on the 747 and 777 which have a bank of O2 tanks )
5)Did the mask fit over your mouth, or did you fit it over your nose?
6) Did any passengers not use their mask?
7) Did the bag attached to your mask inflate?
8) Did you notice any fogging of the cabin air?
9) What was the announcements after the aircraft level out at a lower level. Was there an announcement about this and to cease using the masks?
10) Did the seatbelt sign come on when the O2 masks deployed and do you remember how long it remained on?
11) Can you describe the actions of the cabin crew in response to the O2 masks deployment?
12) Did you notice any spare O2 masks in your vicinity?
12) What was the announcement after arrival at MEL?

@jb747
Are there any high altitude routes without immediate descent capability?
Is decompression (and therefore lower altitude flying) factored into ETOPS certification or fuel required to alternate?
Is there a way of opening the O2 drop doors if one fails to open

@panpan
you may also like to give a narrative about your experience here:
Experience of Emergency measures

 

[panpan]

So I have to explain the event a bit. Picture this:

it is 7'somethng oclock, you have been up since 4. Just getting into the swing of the day,.Coffee in your tray, OK ham and cheese toastie in your mouth. Orange tints in a black sky. Cabin crew are attentive and delightful All is serene and peaceful. Takeoff was normal. Air is clean and fresh, Will be a good day

Look out the window. World in tilted. Listen. Change of engine pitch. Now I see we are nosing down. Not normal
This goes on for 15-30 secs before...

1 and 2) when the oxy masks dropped, it was accompanied by a calm, stern, male voice LOUDLY saying "This is an emergency. You are required at this time to breathe oxygen. Pull the mask down. Strap it onto your face. Stay in your seat." Over and over again. It was surreal. The female passenger next to me gasped and grabbed my hand. The lady behind me was clearing going to hyperventilate. BUT to me - the direction was clear from the voice - and I followed it.

3 and 4 ) I did not pull at all. Too panicked to. So a slight smell,but not unpleasant, not plasticy. If there is a chemical reaction on pull mine would not have worked, so I dispute that.

5) Mouth and nose. Allowed air in at the sides. A solid yellow cup not flexible. I forgot to tighten my strap but it stayed on (over my ears) I assume at "bad" altitudes it might suck to your face?

6) No.EVERYONE put it on.

7) bag did not inflate. When you breathe in, the bag makes a kind of bubbling noise/feel, like blowing out of a straw into a drink.

8) No (I assume the depressurisation was a slow leak). I did not hear a bang either

9) Obviously the recorded message stopped. The Captain announced simply "We are now at a safe level. You may remove your mask and breathe normally. There is a problem with the aircraft, we are diverting to Melbourne. Cabin crew, continue follow-on duties". I am pretty sure it was in that order. "Follow-on duties" I didn't understand at the time, however crew got out of their seats, went to the tail and moved forward (facing the tail) asking for a thumbs up from each passenger as they travelled up the aisle towards the nose.

10) wow you must have seen it in a dream. So JUST BEFORE the masks dropped there were two signals within 5 seconds of each other. Seatbelt was the first, the second I can't account for, but might have been warning to crew re masks coming down. There was a 5 -10 sec delay between last signal and masks dropping. I never saw/heard the signals cleared

11) Crew found the closest seat, buckled in and put on a mask. No fuss. There were some people in mild distress, but they didn't acknowledge them at this time. It was kinda everyone for themselves at this point.

12) Each seat set either side of the gangway had one extra maxk (i.e.4 for 3 seats)

13) There was a delay after landing before we were allowed to disembark. Captain simply said " Wait until we are given the all clear to disembark from ground (crew)". No "Welcome to Melbourne, local time is...", no disembarkation music, etc
We simply got off. Crew smiled but said nothing. My wife asked me if we all clapped and cheered when we finally made it to the gate. We did not.

However, when we reached the building (over the skybridge), some people simply collapsed and/or cried from the stress of it.