Is Citi Plus still the best option for overseas cash?

[bernardblack]

Is Citi Plus still the best option for overseas cash? Obviously I haven't done a lot of international travel since 2019.

If I have to open some other account it might be time to get started, since we depart in five weeks.

(I'm set for FX-fee-free purchases, with a US Amex Gold backed with a Coles Rewards Mastercard and a Bundll account which charges to my Dragon Visa.)

 

[Lynda2475]

Macquarie transaction account

I have this too and uses the same Mastercard rate as Citibank Plus for purchases.

The only time Citibank is better is when in a country where ATM operators tend to charge their own fees, as if you can find a citibank atm (very easy to do in New York city as all the Walgreens/Duane Reede atms are operated by citibank, or Singapore or Hong Kong) then no fees. Macquaries dont operate any ATMs.

 

[serfty]

is when in a country where ATM operators tend to charge their own fees

This is why my ING is useful.

Doubly useful is the same hoops used to get the no ATM fee withdrawal also activates much of the the 5% PA interest at call for up to $100k.

 

[There'sOnlyOneJimmy]

This is why my ING is useful.

Doubly useful is the same hoops used to get the no ATM fee withdrawal also activates much of the the 5% PA interest at call for up to $100k.

Sad to say, but the 5% interest only applies to the first $100k (and only to one account).

 

[theblank]

I noticed the discussion about rates etc. I have a feeling that since NAB took over the rate achieved has been pretty variable, sometimes really good, sometimes not so good. The thread has prompted me to review transactions since 1 November 2022.

I've calculated the AUD/foreign currency ratio, then compared to XE.com historical rate for the day. I've used either the midnight or midday rate. On days where the currency is varying wildly there the accuracy is going to be low.

the percentage difference is a percentage of the XE rate. i.e. (XE Rate - Citibank rate)/XE Rate.

your calculations and assumptions are flawed
- NAB doesnt have a 'rate' to take over. The rate is set by Visa/MC, who in australia pass the transaction on to NAB in AUD
- Visa/MC set the rate the day before, so todays rate was set yesterday.

noting that Visa and MC have different conditions, and set their rate at different times, Visa applies the rate according to the transaction date. Mastercard uses the rate on the day transaction was posted ( i think thats correct - this info is online on the MC site so easy to check)

what you are seeing is fluctations in rates over one day (or longer). There is nothing to check except the exchange rate on MC or Visas website.

 

[Kangarucci]

As of 1 August, ING will no longer rebate international ATM fees.

 

[Vic]

your calculations and assumptions are flawed
- NAB doesnt have a 'rate' to take over. The rate is set by Visa/MC, who in australia pass the transaction on to NAB in AUD

lol
Yeah, actually I was not saying NAB tool over the rate. I missed a comma:

I noticed the discussion about rates etc. I have a feeling that since NAB took over, the rate achieved has been pretty variable, sometimes really good, sometimes not so good.

Hope that clarifies, sorry for the confusion.

- Visa/MC set the rate the day before, so todays rate was set yesterday.

noting that Visa and MC have different conditions, and set their rate at different times, Visa applies the rate according to the transaction date. Mastercard uses the rate on the day transaction was posted ( i think thats correct - this info is online on the MC site so easy to check)

what you are seeing is fluctations in rates over one day (or longer). There is nothing to check except the exchange rate on MC or Visas website.

I clearly stated that the inaccuracy in my calculations would be mostly due to variations in the sample rate I've chosen and the time of the actual rate used. I also clearly stated this would be worse where the rate was had greater variations., i.e. great volatility.
As far as I can see my assumptions are correct, and you've just confirmed they're correct.

It's also worth noting that the Citibank card I have is a mastercard product. The Visa process isn't really relevant in that case.

I'd be interested to understand how you think my calculations are flawed. I picked a metric for determining a percentage variation. The main point was to not put out my actual purchase amount on the line.
More than happy to understand if there is a better way to make the comparison.

 

[SYD]

As of 1 August, ING will no longer rebate international ATM fees.

They will continue rebate their own $5 fee (if you meet the preceding months conditions) but not the local ATM fee. Which is a big shame.

ING Bank Dropping 5 ATM Operator Fee Rebate Benefit from 1/8/23

It was good while it lasted. Fortunately cash is no longer king in many places. Maybe the occasional $3 ATM fee is not a big deal but I’ll explore options beyond others I already have. Including withdrawing USD while I’m here now! 😁 I’ll still be keeping ING for the Savings Maximiser. Still...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[Pete98765432]

They will continue rebate their own $5 fee (if you meet the preceding months conditions) but not the local ATM fee. Which is a big shame.

ING Bank Dropping 5 ATM Operator Fee Rebate Benefit from 1/8/23

It was good while it lasted. Fortunately cash is no longer king in many places. Maybe the occasional $3 ATM fee is not a big deal but I’ll explore options beyond others I already have. Including withdrawing USD while I’m here now! 😁 I’ll still be keeping ING for the Savings Maximiser. Still...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

True, but only up to five times a month (including any domestic ATM operator fee rebates) and, as you say, you jump through their hoops the preceding month. Why bother when there are other banks that don’t charge their own fees in the first place.

 

[SYD]

True, but only up to five times a month (including any domestic ATM operator fee rebates) and, as you say, you jump through their hoops the preceding month. Why bother when there are other banks that don’t charge their own fees in the first place.

5% interest on Savings Maximiser account.

But regarding domestic ATM withdrawals, it’s pretty easy to avoid fees. My NAB card works in pretty much all the major ATMs fee free. I only use ING abroad or the rare occasion I find myself desperate for cash at home.

 

[Lynda2475]

5% interest on Savings Maximiser account.

But Macquarie offering 4.8% (no hurdles) and Citibank 4.5% (no hurdles).

The rebate on overseas operator fees the biggest differentiator for this product, only reason I signed up and since it will cease before my next overseas trip I will be closing it. What a waste of time.

 

[theblank]

l'd be interested to understand how you think my calculations are flawed. I picked a metric for determining a percentage variation. The main point was to not put out my actual purchase amount on the line.

already said so - because its not a NAB rate you are checking, its the Mastercard or Visa rate, who make their decision what the rate will be for the following day. Eg today is Tuesday, they decide today, what the exchange rate will be for Wednesday. So your starting point is off by 24 hours.

More than happy to understand if there is a better way to make the comparison.

Already said so, there is only one way, go to mastercard or visa daily rate websites and check the transaction. Every Australian bank gets the same rate because V/MC to the conversion, the only difference is if the Bank adds a % fee, which is always a seperate line charge.

 

[Pele]

Interesting thread. The Citibank Plus account isn't dead, you know.
They are only closing the foreign currency accounts. While that is super annoying. The AUD citibank plus product will remain open.

I noticed the discussion about rates etc. I have a feeling that since NAB took over the rate achieved has been pretty variable, sometimes really good, sometimes not so good. The thread has prompted me to review transactions since 1 November 2022.

I've calculated the AUD/foreign currency ratio, then compared to XE.com historical rate for the day. I've used either the midnight or midday rate. On days where the currency is varying wildly there the accuracy is going to be low.

the percentage difference is a percentage of the XE rate. i.e. (XE Rate - Citibank rate)/XE Rate.
I'm pretty happy overall. I'm sure the Indian Rupee numbers are high because of the low value of the Rupee.
I might also work out the variations on Uber transactions via Amex for the same travel.

Average variations by currency:
CAD 1.258%
EUR 0.660%
GBP 0.335%
INR 2.040%
NZD 0.362%
USD 0.549%
SGD 1.078%


Full data set, sorted by currency.

Date	Currency	AUD/foreign	XE historical	% diff.
01/11/2022	CAD	1.14857	1.1462	0.207%
10/11/2022	CAD	1.15191	1.14947	0.212%
10/11/2022	CAD	1.15292	1.14947	0.300%
11/11/2022	CAD	1.14667	1.13533	0.999%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.13810	1.12563	1.107%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.13818	1.12563	1.115%
11/11/2022	CAD	1.14800	1.13533	1.116%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.13842	1.12563	1.136%
09/11/2022	CAD	1.15796	1.14494	1.138%
08/11/2022	CAD	1.15769	1.14467	1.138%
09/11/2022	CAD	1.15807	1.14494	1.147%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.13855	1.12563	1.148%
08/11/2022	CAD	1.15781	1.14467	1.148%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.13862	1.12563	1.154%
08/11/2022	CAD	1.15803	1.14467	1.167%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.13882	1.12563	1.172%
17/11/2022	CAD	1.13863	1.11273	2.328%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.15276	1.12563	2.411%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.15377	1.12563	2.500%
14/11/2022	CAD	1.15404	1.12563	2.524%
31/03/2023	EUR	1.62612	1.62508	0.064%
30/03/2023	EUR	1.62611	1.62408	0.125%
13/03/2023	EUR	1.61533	1.61013	0.323%
14/03/2023	EUR	1.61532	1.60867	0.414%
16/01/2023	EUR	1.56214	1.55225	0.637%
16/01/2023	EUR	1.56214	1.55225	0.637%
16/01/2023	EUR	1.56217	1.55225	0.639%
07/12/2022	EUR	1.58700	1.56301	1.535%
19/12/2022	EUR	1.60749	1.58271	1.565%
30/01/2023	GBP	1.74610	1.7446	0.086%
03/04/2023	GBP	1.84939	1.84459	0.260%
31/03/2023	GBP	1.84949	1.84439	0.277%
04/01/2023	GBP	1.78600	1.77955	0.362%
22/02/2023	GBP	1.75217	1.76432	0.688%
13/02/2023	INR	0.0175502	0.0175348	0.088%
13/02/2023	INR	0.0175710	0.0175348	0.206%
13/02/2023	INR	0.0175717	0.0175348	0.210%
13/02/2023	INR	0.0175733	0.0175348	0.220%
19/12/2022	INR	0.0181338	0.0180855	0.267%
13/02/2023	INR	0.0176106	0.0175348	0.432%
06/02/2023	INR	0.0176438	0.0175206	0.703%
23/02/2023	INR	0.0180592	0.0177142	1.948%
13/02/2023	INR	0.0200400	0.0175348	14.287%
01/12/2022	NZD	0.92843	0.92847	0.004%
30/11/2022	NZD	0.92704	0.927138	0.011%
30/11/2022	NZD	0.92725	0.927138	0.012%
01/12/2022	NZD	0.92866	0.92847	0.021%
30/11/2022	NZD	0.92745	0.927138	0.034%
28/11/2022	NZD	0.92710	0.926331	0.083%
29/11/2022	NZD	0.92721	0.926331	0.095%
01/12/2022	NZD	0.93036	0.92847	0.203%
01/12/2022	NZD	0.93091	0.92847	0.263%
02/12/2022	NZD	0.93037	0.935178	0.514%
02/12/2022	NZD	0.93019	0.935178	0.534%
02/12/2022	NZD	0.92880	0.935178	0.682%
02/12/2022	NZD	0.92873	0.935178	0.690%
02/12/2022	NZD	0.92857	0.935178	0.706%
02/12/2022	NZD	0.92845	0.935178	0.719%
05/12/2022	NZD	0.92853	0.939975	1.217%
14/02/2023	SGD	1.09049	1.08041	0.933%
15/02/2023	SGD	1.09043	1.07726	1.223%
21/12/2022	USD	1.49815	1.49518	0.199%
30/01/2023	USD	1.41324	1.40329	0.709%
12/01/2023	USD	1.45829	1.44758	0.740%

Great info Vic.

For the Malaysian ringit i did some testing last week and the variation was 1.5%. Not great but there are plenty worse.

 

[Vic]

already said so - because its not a NAB rate you are checking, its the Mastercard or Visa rate, who make their decision what the rate will be for the following day. Eg today is Tuesday, they decide today, what the exchange rate will be for Wednesday. So your starting point is off by 24 hours.


Already said so, there is only one way, go to mastercard or visa daily rate websites and check the transaction. Every Australian bank gets the same rate because V/MC to the conversion, the only difference is if the Bank adds a % fee, which is always a seperate line charge.

Oh you think data is the same as calculations... Hmm basic mathematics. so you don't have an alternative metric to calculate... ok

I've already responded to your flawed claims about my assumptions. flaws that I already acknowledged in my post.
nice try fail.

 

[Vic]

But Macquarie offering 4.8% (no hurdles) and Citibank 4.5% (no hurdles).

no comment about rebates. Nut I noticed my Macquarie statement today (replacement visa for the Jetstar mastercard) claims no fees on international purchases in store or on line.

 

[robbo135]

But Macquarie offering 4.8% (no hurdles) and Citibank 4.5% (no hurdles).

Macquarie is 4.8% for the first 4 months, then reverts back to 4.00%.

Citi is only 4.25% and is also only a 4 months intro rate before reverting back to 3.85%.

 

[Lynda2475]

Macquarie is 4.8% for the first 4 months, then reverts back to 4.00%.

Citi is only 4.25% and is also only a 4 months intro rate before reverting back to 3.85%.

But both allow much larger deposits; and no hoops to jump.

YMMV, but unless ING is your main bank (and it is not mine) then it is a lot of messing around now that the biggest benefit which was rebate of overseas ATM fees is discontinued.

With interest rates going up across the board wont be too hard to get a decent return on savings after almost 15 years of cough rates.

 

[SeaWolf]

So, I've had a look around and here's my summary of accounts that will help you avoid ATM owner fees going forward. There simply isn't a universal option anymore (that I could find) and I reckon I'm going to end up with three accounts and which I'll use will depend on the country I'm travelling to. I'll cover each in turn and the use cases that I see for them.

• Citibank Plus

This account holds AUD only and the card uses the Mastercard conversion rate (pg. 12). Citibank ATMs globally do not charge Citibank cards a fee to withdraw. You've got until May 20th to sign up for this and it's possible NAB will move to kill the product/branding going forward, so just keep that in mind. Australia isn't the only country that Citibank is pulling out of, so the useful countries may dwindle as well. This will be the goto card for any country that has Citibank ATMs available.​

• HSBC Everyday Global Account

This one is a bit more fiddly. HSBC ATMs globally mostly don't charge a fee to withdraw when using a HSBC card, but the exceptions are (currently) Argentina, France, Greece, Malta, Mexico and Turkey. This account is a multi-curreny account and this is where it gets a bit more fiddly. If you withdraw in a currency that the account doesn't support then it'll use the Visa conversion rate. If you withdraw in a currency that the account does support and you don't currently hold a balance in that currency then it'll use the HSBC Daily Exchange rate (pg. 11). Looking at those rates I've calculated there's a ~2.5% commission built into them (little more for some, little less for others), which would sometimes be less than ATM owner fees unless you were withdrawing large-ish amount. This card will be the goto for countries with HSBC ATMs and that use a currency not supported by the account. It may be an option in HSBC countries that do have a supported currency if there isn't a better choice (other than the exceptions).​

• Westpac/St. George Travel Money Card

Also a bit fiddly. This card has access to the Global ATM Alliance and if you're in a country with a member bank then those ATMs will not charge you a fee. This is another multi-currency card but if you only hold AUD on it then it'll use the Mastercard conversion rate (pg. 22). Westpac conversion rates only apply if you convert a balance on the account to another currency to hold within the account. The card will hit you its own ATM withdrawal fee if you withdraw from an ATM this is not part of the alliance (pg. 24). This card will be the goto for any country that has a Global ATM alliance bank.​

Obviously in countries where there's ATMs with no owner fees available then there's plenty of transaction accounts in Australia that won't hit you with a fee either. There's probably some other options around as well and I'd be curious to hear what combination of accounts others are going to be using. Ultimately I'm finding that for the places I travel to I'm needing cash less and less. Even so, most of the time I've needed at least a little bit of it in each country for now and then.

 

[auriga]

• Westpac/St. George Travel Money Card

Also a bit fiddly. This card has access to the Global ATM Alliance and if you're in a country with a member bank then those ATMs will not charge you a fee. This is another multi-currency card but if you only hold AUD on it then it'll use the Mastercard conversion rate (pg. 22). Westpac conversion rates only apply if you convert a balance on the account to another currency to hold within the account. The card will hit you its own ATM withdrawal fee if you withdraw from an ATM this is not part of the alliance (pg. 24). This card will be the goto for any country that has a Global ATM alliance bank.​

Obviously in countries where there's ATMs with no owner fees available then there's plenty of transaction accounts in Australia that won't hit you with a fee either. There's probably some other options around as well and I'd be curious to hear what combination of accounts others are going to be using. Ultimately I'm finding that for the places I travel to I'm needing cash less and less. Even so, most of the time I've needed at least a little bit of it in each country for now and then.

Looks like the Westpac card charges 3% foreign transaction fee though

 

[ltwo]

That 3% applies to POS transactions I believe (e.g. at a cashier). ATM's are separate?

 

[SeaWolf]

Looks like the Westpac card charges 3% foreign transaction fee though

No, there's no currency conversion fee (see page 24). This is a different product to their transaction account though (that will hit you a conversion fee). This is a separate prepaid card.