Is Qantas diluting the benefits of status?

[Dave Noble]

What I am saying is that a lot of people wouldn't bother, not that all F pax with a lot of money won't bother. I know quite a few people who would not even dream of travelling in anything other than F where-ever it is available and never joined FF schemes, because they don't feel the need to (excess baggage charges don't bother them either because it's only 'cost savings' if they don't get charged them), and also because they don't fly 'that much'.

Indeed. Plus may well not have any sort of loyalty to any airline and will take the best option for the journey being undertaken that day too.

Dave

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What I am saying is that a lot of people wouldn't bother, not that all F pax with a lot of money won't bother. I know quite a few people who would not even dream of travelling in anything other than F where-ever it is available and never joined FF schemes, because they don't feel the need to (excess baggage charges don't bother them either because it's only 'cost savings' if they don't get charged them), and also because they don't fly 'that much'.

Commuter - you asked a very simple question - why would anyone bother to join an FF scheme if you flew F all the time etc.

I gave you an answer as to why some people who fly F all the time do join schemes.

I have to say all the people I know that can afford to fly F all the time are not people who needlessly waste money. 99% of the people I know who fly F all the time are switched on and know that 200 kilos of excess luggage is a lot of money that they DO actually care about, it's an annoyance if you have to pay out money for nothing.

 

[Amberlower]

Hmm - I'm not sure what your point is here then? If the flight is full in business, why would QF give seats away when they can sell them?

I think NM makes a good point WRT to BA.

OK this is getting confusing, but my point is.....BA gives away seats when they have them and fill up the business cabin that way at the last minute. Qantas tells you there are no seats available and fly half empty cabins.

 

[Commuter]

OK this is getting confusing, but my point is.....BA gives away seats when they have them and fill up the business cabin that way at the last minute. Qantas tells you there are no seats available and fly half empty cabins.

I think what QF is doing is to try not to devalue the premium cabin.
The thing is though, QF seems to be doing financially better than BA, so BA is probably not such a good example for QF to follow, perhaps?

 

[Commuter]

I gave you an answer as to why some people who fly F all the time do join schemes.

I have to say all the people I know that can afford to fly F all the time are not people who needlessly waste money. 99% of the people I know who fly F all the time are switched on and know that 200 kilos of excess luggage is a lot of money that they DO actually care about, it's an annoyance if you have to pay out money for nothing.

That's fair enough, and I do sort of see the point of registering. The thing was, though, it was actually a rhetorical question (hard to get it to come across correctly online at times!).

All I was trying to say (mainly in response to Evan's comment, I think, because he seemed surprised that quite a few passengers in F cabin did not seem to belong to one of the OW schemes) was really that not all 'relatively frequent' F passengers feel the need to register for FF schemes.

 

[Evan]

I didn't think BA had OW Ruby.

oneworld - British Airways

Your right, sorry it did not say ruby, it just was executive club member... i assume it was not silver and gold therefor the next lowest was ruby.

I do take people's point that not all people why fly F all the time would possibly not bother with a FF program but i would think most would be members after being convinced by somebody at some time. Besides it makes checking in and all those things easier.

My LHR-MCT the other day had only 4 out of 20 (yes only 4 !! in a High F 777) F passengers and J was also rather empty... but i am told the way back tomorrow is 100% full.
This can be accounted for i am told by the locals leaving for summer.

I wonder how full my LHR-JNB will be ? i assume reasonable since 2 x 747's fly at almost the same time.

 

[Commuter]

I do take people's point that not all people why fly F all the time would possibly not bother with a FF program but i would think most would be members after being convinced by somebody at some time. Besides it makes checking in and all those things easier.

If you're flying international F though, check-in process would be just about the same if you are a FF member or not though. I think one of the great benefits of high-tier FF membership is avoidance of queuing through the use of J/F check-in counter, but of course you'd use the F check-in if you are flying F anyway.

 

[Evan]

If you're flying international F though, check-in process would be just about the same if you are a FF member or not though. I think one of the great benefits of high-tier FF membership is avoidance of queuing through the use of J/F check-in counter, but of course you'd use the F check-in if you are flying F anyway.

I have nightmares of not being able to use the priority queues like F/J check-in and no lounge access. I remember what it was like being a NB many many years ago... prompted me to buy my lifetime QP which has since become redundant in the last few years progressing from OWS to OWE. I still don't like airports that much but its a lot better than it used to be.

 

[drron]

I have nightmares of not being able to use the priority queues like F/J check-in and no lounge access. I remember what it was like being a NB many many years ago... prompted me to buy my lifetime QP which has since become redundant in the last few years progressing from OWS to OWE. I still don't like airports that much but its a lot better than it used to be.

Exactly the same for me.My life QP though still comes in handy being in Aadvantage so it gets me domestic AC entry in the USA.

 

[possumoz]

True, the complaints are probably valid, but if you're going to complain then stop sitting on a high chair making noises and actually put your money where your mouth is - literally.

My dimly past memory tells me its much more fun fingerpainting with mashed pumpkin and feeding the cat under the high chair globs of banana custard....:shock:

 

[simongr]

If you're flying international F though, check-in process would be just about the same if you are a FF member or not though.

There are benefits to checking in in paid F above OWE in that they meet you at the door and your immi papers are prefilled...

 

[AnonymousCoward]

There are benefits to checking in in paid F above OWE in that they meet you at the door and your immi papers are prefilled...

In SFO? Never had that happen to me

But back to the previous point - I suspect that there are various celebs and VIPs (probably politicians CEO-type people) that don't join every FF scheme. The type that might fly on private jets, but also have to fly F. Paying extra for baggage probably never figures into the equation - it's all taken care of by their PAs. Or they might be industry people (do BA flight captains etc in F?)

 

[straitman]

The reason why people who have lots and lots of money and fly F on full fare tickets have FF membership is so that they can get quaranteed seats, unlimited luggage allowance and all sorts of perks like Chairman's Lounge membership (or equivalent).
mel-t

I would think that most of the above would come with buying a 'F' ticket in any case.

 

[anat0l]

OK this is getting confusing, but my point is.....BA gives away seats when they have them and fill up the business cabin that way at the last minute. Qantas tells you there are no seats available and fly half empty cabins.

All of this is true. (Well, I can't verify if BA "gives away seats" etc.) So as a plain observation, you're right.

Now, is this a good thing or a bad thing?

From a customer's point of view, some people think this is a bad thing, i.e. a plane goes with premium seats begging that some pax have been unable to get, whether it be through attempting to sweet-talk the check-in/lounge/gate agent(s), or through an attempted points upgrade that was declined.

When QF tells you that there are "no seats available", they really mean "no seats available for you", not that the cabin is completely full. It's easier to say the first one since it is less direct and avoids having to give every customer a lecture on yield management. (Of course, then the customer believes that a corporation is putting profits ahead of customer service, since many believe it's their God-given right to receive an upgrade, especially if they have all the "resources" (e.g. points, cash) to obtain one "by the rules".)

On the other hand, because of QF's astute yield management (amongst other things), this is mainly why QF is weathering the whole GFC a bit better than some of its colleagues. It so turns out that it may be more profitable to fly a cabin less than full rather than one that is full of pax who are simply there on the cheap. Is this a good thing? Well, in some cases yes, since shareholders still need to be appeased, plus the last thing we want (unless you travel DJ or the like) is another Ansett story (replacing 'Qantas' for 'Ansett'). Mainly as well (and this has been said many times), the value of the premium cabins are preserved since there isn't an expectation that if I can purchase a cash Y ticket for a lot less than a J ticket, then I can use my points simply to upgrade to J. If it was that easy, why would anyone ever pay for J in cash unless you had money to burn (literally)?

Customers hardly ever see the good in a profitable airline, or any profitable business for that matter. All they care about is getting what they want as cheap as they are ready to tolerate it. Often it's a case of, "why should I care how much it costs you? I'm the customer, I paid for it (with cash, points, whatever), I'm entitled to it, you are able to do it, make it happen and read my lips - I don't care". Balancing profits and customer value is a precarious and delicate art (not a science), but for all their faults (at least according to our reliable mainstream media ), I think Qantas are doing a fairly decent job.

I'd imagine that BA is in financial trouble not just due to "giving away seats" (so to speak).

 

[straitman]

anat0l,

Very well put.

 

[drron]

anat0l,

Very well put.

+1 from me.

 

[oz_mark]

+1 from me.

+2 from me.

Also there is no guarantee that there is catering for the spare seats, and "catering not assured" does not placate some folk (IME). They expect the full bit if they have used points for an ODU.

 

[yo yo ma]

When QF tells you that there are "no seats available", they really mean "no seats available for you", not that the cabin is completely full. It's easier to say the first one since it is less direct and avoids having to give every customer a lecture on yield management. (Of course, then the customer believes that a corporation is putting profits ahead of customer service, since many believe it's their God-given right to receive an upgrade, especially if they have all the "resources" (e.g. points, cash) to obtain one "by the rules".)

+3 for me... very well written

 

[JohnK]

Customers hardly ever see the good in a profitable airline, or any profitable business for that matter. All they care about is getting what they want as cheap as they are ready to tolerate it. Often it's a case of, "why should I care how much it costs you? I'm the customer, I paid for it (with cash, points, whatever), I'm entitled to it, you are able to do it, make it happen and read my lips - I don't care". Balancing profits and customer value is a precarious and delicate art (not a science), but for all their faults (at least according to our reliable mainstream media ), I think Qantas are doing a fairly decent job.

I will go against the trend here and say that I think Qantas is off the mark by alienating customers and it's hardcore frequent flyers with what appears to be poor decisions lately.

I agree that an airline is in the business of trying to make money but Qantas, and most mainstream airlines, also try to entice business and profit by promoting a frequent flyer program and partnerships to earn FF points that can be used for awards flights and upgrades. When you then try to protect your premium cabins by not releasing enough award seats or upgrade seats in premium cabins then you start to disillusion and alienate customers.

We have had many reports on AFF over the years of people trying to use hard earned points for upgrades and simply not able to get a seat when premium cabins have been empty. Is this right? Some people would say "Yes" as Qantas is making a profit but I say "No" as the airline, in this case Qantas, is being deceptive in trying to entice people to earn FF points but then dictating how they want people to spend those FF points.

In my opinion Qantas, and most mainstream airlines, can't have everything it's own way. There will come a time when people will be totally fed up and then the airlines will need to face the consequences....

 

[oz_mark]

We have had many reports on AFF over the years of people trying to use hard earned points for upgrades and simply not able to get a seat when premium cabins have been empty. Is this right? Some people would say "Yes" as Qantas is making a profit but I say "No" as the airline, in this case Qantas, is being deceptive in trying to entice people to earn FF points but then dictating how they want people to spend those FF points.

As I alluded to in a previous post, there is more to providing "business class" travel than just having an empty seat. For example, if you are going to be doing ODU's then you will be wanting to ensure that approprite catering is available. In some cases, I would think that the available catering would allow for some upgrades, but might not be sufficient to completely fill the cabin with ODU's.

In my opinion Qantas, and most mainstream airlines, can't have everything it's own way. There will come a time when people will be totally fed up and then the airlines will need to face the consequences....

Most people are all talk and bluster. When it comes to putting there money where there mouth is, there is much evidence to suggest they will stick with Qantas anyway.