Is QF Uncompetitive ?

[jmillard]

We all know as savvy travellers how and when to get the best deals on the carriers we want to.

I do PER-PVG regularly and leaving aside the issue that at the moment I can't get out of PER on QF metal ( ), I did the following comparison on OW airlines in J for late June -

QF $5200 17 hours travel time
CX $5100 12 hours travel time
MH $3100 13 hours travel time

 

[christanil]

I would put it down to numerous factors:
1. Initial High Australian wages due to sparse labor, however this will hopefully rectify itself with an increasing population. (While still offering opportunities to people on the lower end i hope!) (Unique)
2. Unions, (From what my boss says not my personal experience), and his dealings with them. I remember asking him the exact same thing "Why is qantas so **** for the price". I'm not exactly sure what part they play however. (Somewhat Unique)
3. AUD fluctuates here and there, so it's hard to say but it would definitely make it easier for overseas tourists/corporates to book via QF. (This isn't exclusive to Australia either every country has this)
4. Rise of the services industry in Australia, alot of people now simply charge their clients to fly QF and pricing isn't really an issue as long as it's well within budget. (Not sure of which large corporates use virgin, Also arguably virgins international routes are lackluster in comparison). (Not unique, this has been a progressive change for the last couple of decades)

Personally like many others, when i use to work i would just get my co to pay for the flights at the highest fare (Dom).
Now whenever im booking i just book the cheapest OW airline which in many cases has been CX, or MH and both services surpass QF's. Generally the status credits roll over to the amount i need to maintain status anyway.
Will soon be flying BA in J but i haven't heard many good things about them :X.

For me i think the time has come to figuring out when would be the best time to switch OW FF programs, Perhaps get a switch from QF to a Star Alliance member and then back to CX so they don't drop me a tier ?

Of course many other airlines don't have these issues~

 

[wombatpatties]

I am sorry but that is very shallow.

Thankyou for your honest reply, (maybe I should have mentioned int'l & domestic flights over the years to boost the tally), BUT
I am just an ordinary everyday person, an aussie battler, and when I fly overseas for that well-earned holiday,
I should at least receive manners and well-groomed staff representing the Australian airline, regardless if it was a freebie. Only I
knew it was one.

and that is my truth.

 

[zoomzoom]

QF is totally uncompetitive, with an inferior product. Best deal to USA is Delta or Virgin, bestter aircraft, much better terminal in the West coast and far better pricing. QF have also lost me on domestic routes in Australia. In different crews and expensive fares. Also absolutely obsessed with how profitable a customer is in a single year, never mind over 30 yrs of loyalty. (I have a 3 digit FF number..........and it does nothing for me) And the most expensive FF redemption program. The sooner Singapore gets rights on the Pacific the better as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ironmanderek]

Doing some planning / snooping around for some fares for a flight between Perth & New York, and for the sake of this discussion used the dates 1/6/15 to 8/6/15

QF lost my international loyalty a long time ago. A very bad experience from MEL-LAX cost them dearly. I still fly domestic with them but QF have basically made it impossible to fly international from PER and with 6 flights per day from PER to middle east why would you choose them? I have recently moved to MEL so will give QF international another try and see how it goes.

 

[vetrade]

Flew QF94 LAX - MEL 2 days ago and J was only about half full. Don't know how many were in Y. Admittedly I don't know what their loadings were for any other flights but if they can't attract more pax on what is regarded as a premium route the question needs to be asked "Why not?".
Service was average too - approx 5 hrs out from MEL I asked for a lasagne (it was on the list of meals available throughout the flight) and got a packet of chips instead as "We're serving breakfast in 45 minutes" - 2 hrs and 10 minutes later breakfast arrived! Only half a cabin and a full compliment of cabin crew couldn't be bothered serving one meal while all the other pax were asleep.

 

[Melburnian1]

QF - The only airline fully Australian owned.

This is not true.

In late 2014 47.8 per cent of QF was foreign owned. (by looking at the Home - Australian Securities Exchange - ASX or others, a more recent figure could be sourced.) It is restricted under the Qantas Sale Act to 49 per cent foreign ownership.

It is difficult to take QFi all that seriously on a number of its routes because it does not (for example) usually fly nonstop daily SYD to PVG, SYD to MNL, SYD to CGK, MEL to HKG, MEL to SIN or at all from anywhere in Oz to KUL using its own metal.

It survives because many corporates and government agencies use corporate travel agents who book it first and who seem not to consider alternatives. As another on AFF remarked, QF (and JQ) have been lucky regarding safety incidents. Notwithstanding that the aviation industry worldwide (regular public transport, not single engine joyflights) is undeniably safer than even five years ago, the law of averages suggests that eventually - who knows when - JQ and QF's 'luck' may run out. Not that I'm wishing it on anyone, of course.

QF's share of leisure travellers who pay for their fares out of their own pockets must be less than 20 per cent on international routes to and from Oz.

Even on routes where it runs daily, QF's frequency is poor or mostly less than its competitors. It still considers SYD as its hub: despite Melbourne and Victoria gaining 100,000 net new residents every year and Melbourne now being not much smaller than Sydney, not many QF flights run nonstop from or to Melbourne internationally.

And yes, the company is unionised, staff are promoted on a seniority basis rather than on merit as far as I know and some that I have come across are unfortunately arrogant.

There is little cause for arrogance when three out of four travellers flying internationally to or from Australia choose a competitor rather than QF or JQ. Even if EK is included, two out of every three of us choose an airline other than EK, JQ or QF, and that is with artificial maximum capacity restrictions ('permitted annual seating capacity') on a number of routes.

QR would like to fly to more than MEL and PER but cannot at present. 5J would like to fly to MEL and only now can it consider doing so as the number of seats on that MNL - Oz route has just been increased. CX would similarly like to increase its flights into and out of Oz but if I recall has reached its ceiling.

 

[SQ421]

The only airline fully Australian owned.

Not true.

The safest airline in the world.

Spending how many millions again, to rebuild VH-OJH than record a hull loss? I feel no less safe flying Cathay, Singapore or Emirates.

How much do you think that Qantas competitors pay for their fuel? Emirates, Etihad, Qatar etc. ???? Next to nothing.

And of course you have evidence to back up this allegation?

 

[zoomzoom]

Lets also recognise the faults of QF management over many years. QF have an uncompetitive international fleet. Old noisy 747 expensive to operate. 380's totally unsuited to most routes, and worth nothing second hand, get ready for the billion dollar right down, and NO 777, the best aircraft in the sy, and very few 787's. And of course an obsession with Jetstar. Most of the 787's are Jetstar. Also QF doesn't fly anywhere these days. Jetstar has priority.
As for international routes, for a country business is focused on Asia where does QF go? And to go to Europe with QF you MUST go through the middle east. Personally I won't. Its unstable and uncomfortable. The first leg is too long. I prefer to stay awake to asia, and sleep on the second leg to europe. Also asia offers far better options for a stop over and holiday if you are lucky enough to have time.
Another dumb decision by QF management. And lets talk about South America?..perhaps another post....

 

[zoomzoom]

And what about the huge rebates QF offer to the big corporate accounts and squeeze the small guys with high fares.................QF does not deserve protected species status, lets have some real competition.

 

[PineappleSkip]

QF airfares are one thing that keeps me flying CX

Cheers skip

 

[RAM]

This is not true.

In late 2014 47.8 per cent of QF was foreign owned. (by looking at the Home - Australian Securities Exchange - ASX or others, a more recent figure could be sourced.) It is restricted under the Qantas Sale Act to 49 per cent foreign ownership.

It is difficult to take QFi all that seriously on a number of its routes because it does not (for example) usually fly nonstop daily SYD to PVG, SYD to MNL, SYD to CGK, MEL to HKG, MEL to SIN or at all from anywhere in Oz to KUL using its own metal.

It survives because many corporates and government agencies use corporate travel agents who book it first and who seem not to consider alternatives. As another on AFF remarked, QF (and JQ) have been lucky regarding safety incidents. Notwithstanding that the aviation industry worldwide (regular public transport, not single engine joyflights) is undeniably safer than even five years ago, the law of averages suggests that eventually - who knows when - JQ and QF's 'luck' may run out. Not that I'm wishing it on anyone, of course.

QF's share of leisure travellers who pay for their fares out of their own pockets must be less than 20 per cent on international routes to and from Oz.

Even on routes where it runs daily, QF's frequency is poor or mostly less than its competitors. It still considers SYD as its hub: despite Melbourne and Victoria gaining 100,000 net new residents every year and Melbourne now being not much smaller than Sydney, not many QF flights run nonstop from or to Melbourne internationally.

And yes, the company is unionised, staff are promoted on a seniority basis rather than on merit as far as I know and some that I have come across are unfortunately arrogant.

There is little cause for arrogance when three out of four travellers flying internationally to or from Australia choose a competitor rather than QF or JQ. Even if EK is included, two out of every three of us choose an airline other than EK, JQ or QF, and that is with artificial maximum capacity restrictions ('permitted annual seating capacity') on a number of routes.

QR would like to fly to more than MEL and PER but cannot at present. 5J would like to fly to MEL and only now can it consider doing so as the number of seats on that MNL - Oz route has just been increased. CX would similarly like to increase its flights into and out of Oz but if I recall has reached its ceiling.

+1

I saw some Q domestic analysis in mid '00s. It showed the proportion of State & Fed Govt pollies, as well as State & Fed Govt senior bureaucrats and non-senior SFG bureaucrats as a proportion of their premium domestic J and Y fare sales (full fare full flex).

It was considered in conjunction with the Chairman's lounge costs.

Basic points:

• Pollies at both levels were a significant contributor to premium revenue (relative to senior bureaucrats by a large factor per capita)
• Senior bureaucrats at Fed were more valuable by 2-3x than State SBs per capita who were significantly more valuable than NSBS&F
• Non-senior BS&F were more valuable than top quartile corporate travellers (per capita by [memory strain] 50-60%)

Nothing like spending other peoples' money.

As for costs, creative accounting such as say capitalising the difference between actual purchase price of an aircraft and the manufacturer's list price and then booking it as a profit which is then amortised away over the next 20-30 years is a great way to make an unprofitable airline look profitable, they may not always be what they seem.

Requires an every faster growing fleet, eventually at an exponential rate though.

Ponzi schemes have a habit of ending?

Q would never do that though would they? Try working out last year's fleet write down/write off - very illuminating. Historical prices more readily available than one may think. Nothing like an ABS Current Account Release for example, "The reason for the blow out in the trade deficit was ....".

Neither would Q have leased it's aircraft prior to privatisation to arbitrage the benefit of changing from tax-free to taxable either would they? Amazing what some people will boast about after a results briefing lunch.

 

[pilotgal1]

I agree. I REALLY would love to be able go back to fly Qantas again. I can never find a flight with them that price matches, and is available to book. Even the taxes on booking QFF flights are 7-10 times higher than booking with Velocity rewards on Virgin Australia. The business class beds I last flew in were flat , yes but sloping down so I would spend my entire "sleep time" trying to wiggle back up to the top of the flat bed. QF really should take a leaf out of VA's book and follow their lead. QF is not a struggling business, just a greedy one.

 

[Alanslegal]

I agree. I REALLY would love to be able go back to fly Qantas again. I can never find a flight with them that price matches, and is available to book. Even the taxes on booking QFF flights are 7-10 times higher than booking with Velocity rewards on Virgin Australia. The business class beds I last flew in were flat , yes but sloping down so I would spend my entire "sleep time" trying to wiggle back up to the top of the flat bed. QF really should take a leaf out of VA's book and follow their lead. QF is not a struggling business, just a greedy one.

Welcome to AFF, are you a pilot?

 

[gilant]

Sometimes we are not comparing apples with apples. For example fares perth-uk business class vary between $4000 and $11000 depending on airline because the products vary. Until QF stopped flying internationally out of Perth their fare was in the $8000 bracket.Similarly premium economy with BA is cheaper than QF but Ba give economy service and food whereas QF give their business class service.

 

[ReLoad]

It's now the QF Rant thread......

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Sometimes we are not comparing apples with apples. For example fares perth-uk business class vary between $4000 and $11000 depending on airline because the products vary. Until QF stopped flying internationally out of Perth their fare was in the $8000 bracket.Similarly premium economy with BA is cheaper than QF but Ba give economy service and food whereas QF give their business class service.

Prices and service vary between airlines, crew, aircraft type, time of flight, time of year, happiness of crew, weather, loading, product type etc...
Any genuine frequent flyer understands no airline is perfect or competitive 100% of the time.

Personally I find QF uncompetitive purely because the airline and the loyalty are no longer aligned.
Nothing to do with flight price or service.

 

[mannej]

Thankyou for your honest reply, (maybe I should have mentioned int'l & domestic flights over the years to boost the tally), BUT
I am just an ordinary everyday person, an aussie battler, and when I fly overseas for that well-earned holiday,
I should at least receive manners and well-groomed staff representing the Australian airline, regardless if it was a freebie. Only I
knew it was one.

and that is my truth.

What does the size of the pilot have to do with QF being uncompetitive?

 

[srprod]

Hard to say. Great to be loyal but $2.2K is a huge increase over the others. Personally however, I have jumped on many QF sales and found fares competitive at those times. It's rare to find excellent Business sale fares to the US though.

 

[viscount]

Doing some planning / snooping around for some fares for a flight between Perth & New York, and for the sake of this discussion used the dates 1/6/15 to 8/6/15

Emirates - $8,523
CX - $9,077
QF - $10,784

I want to fly QF but why would you spend the extra $2.2K for loyalty?

I would not support them for THAT price difference! God no! Last time I flew Qantas Business class the attitudes of the cabin staff was shocking! coughes! Never again! Why is the Islamic Airline Emirates the cheapest??? One may wonder about this.