Is Sydney Really This Bad? [Lockout Laws]

[JohnK]

Well according to crime statistics it's incredibly low and was decreasing before the lockouts.

You don't think a legal adult is responsible enough to make a decision that may risk their own well-being?

Slightly off-topic. Is drink driving a responsible decision?

 

[drron]

Well according to crime statistics it's incredibly low and was decreasing before the lockouts.

You don't think a legal adult is responsible enough to make a decision that may risk their own well-being?

Care to link to the statistics to back up your claim?
I found this one-
Trends in assault in Kings Cross

So although the rate of assaults in the 2 and 5 years before the lockout laws in NSW and on licensed premises were going down there was no change over 2 or 5 years in King's Cross in assaults off licensed premises.
In the year after lockout laws there was a marked decrease in assaults-
“Lockout†Law Evaluation

 

[anat0l]

Only in the last week an "adult" male was sentenced to gaol for a one-punch assault after drinking at least 10 schooners of beer.

Slightly O/T but this man has only been found guilty. They haven't determined how long he will be spending in jail, let alone if he will be going to jail (which is a possibility as he may have already spent time in custody that counts against his sentence, or they may accept the psychological element of his defence to reduce what he would normally get).

More on topic, what does one do in a situation like this? Surely we can't lockout the daylight hours, can we?

 

[OATEK]

Slightly O/T but this man has only been found guilty. They haven't determined how long he will be spending in jail, let alone if he will be going to jail (which is a possibility as he may have already spent time in custody that counts against his sentence, or they may accept the psychological element of his defence to reduce what he would normally get).

More on topic, what does one do in a situation like this? Surely we can't lockout the daylight hours, can we?

My comment was about adults making responsible decisions, not about lock-out hours. When someone comes up with an answer to ending the alcohol/violence mix that leads to this sort of act, I will be cheering loudly. But I haven't heard it yet, and until then see no reason to remove the lockouts after 1am and no alcohol after 3am.

I worked at premises almost next door to an Oxford St Nightclub, and saw the results as the patrons were finally forced out of the place about 7:30am in the morning before the no drinks after 3am. Ugly does not begin to describe the behaviours I witnessed from "adults".

 

[anat0l]

My comment was about adults making responsible decisions, not about lock-out hours. When someone comes up with an answer to ending the alcohol/violence mix that leads to this sort of act, I will be cheering loudly. But I haven't heard it yet, and until then see no reason to remove the lockouts after 1am and no alcohol after 3am.

I worked at premises almost next door to an Oxford St Nightclub, and saw the results as the patrons were finally forced out of the place about 7:30am in the morning before the no drinks after 3am. Ugly does not begin to describe the behaviours I witnessed from "adults".

Well I guess one way to do it rather effectively is to either increase the prices of alcohol, or just outright ban it. It runs along the same lines of reducing access to, or eliminating, the source of risk, which lockouts also do. It also comes from the premise that people cannot be trusted and thus require such a control.

It wouldn't be a popular option for sure, but you can be pretty certain that alcohol related violence would nearly disappear... except when people start sprouting moonshine. Alcohol related illnesses or illnesses related to excess consumption or unhealthy habitual consumption of alcohol will also start to fade out, resulting in less pressure on hospitals.

 

[moa999]

Well I guess one way to do it rather effectively is to either increase the prices of alcohol, or just outright ban it. It runs along the same lines of reducing access to, or eliminating, the source of risk, which lockouts also do. It also comes from the premise that people cannot be trusted and thus require such a control.

It wouldn't be a popular option for sure, but you can be pretty certain that alcohol related violence would nearly disappear... except when people start sprouting moonshine. .

Been tried before in the US.. Not exactly successful.

And nightclubs are not exactly cheap for drinks -- hence why predrinking is ingrained in teen/20s culture. Many are already plastered before they get to a licensed venue

 

[whatmeworry]

Been tried before in the US.. Not exactly successful.

And nightclubs are not exactly cheap for drinks -- hence why predrinking is ingrained in teen/20s culture. Many are already plastered before they get to a licensed venue

Part of the problem, teen/20s don't have much cash hence the binge drinking. Doesn't happen just in Australia.

Some many loopholes when the USA tried abolition.

 

[Milefest]

Only in the last week an "adult" male was sentenced to gaol for a one-punch assault after drinking at least 10 schooners of beer.

I would be lying on the floor after 10 schooners, and any attempt at a one-punch haymaker with my arthritic hands would deliver me to hospital with a mangled hand and leave the other person laughing.

To deliver a punch that kills, or in this case caused permanent disability, generally requires and involves the strength of younger men. No person over the age of 18 is likely to make "adult" or rational decisions after 10+ schooners, and trying to uncouple abuse of alcohol as part of the problem is not facing up to reality.

So there is a huge difference between the idea that "a legal adult is responsible enough to make a decision that may risk their own well-being" by say bungy jumping as against drinking to excess, losing their social inhibitions, and taking out all the frustrations in their life on an unsuspecting victim.

You do realise that you are responsible for your actions regardless of how drunk you are?

Slightly off-topic. Is drink driving a responsible decision?

No. Which is why it's illegal to drink drive. But we don't have a driving curfew just in case people do decide to drink drive.

Care to link to the statistics to back up your claim?
I found this one-
Trends in assault in Kings Cross

So although the rate of assaults in the 2 and 5 years before the lockout laws in NSW and on licensed premises were going down there was no change over 2 or 5 years in King's Cross in assaults off licensed premises.

Wow, they're lower than I thought, many news paper articles I read had them even higher. Many first world cities have much higher crime rates.

In the year after lockout laws there was a marked decrease in assaults-
“Lockout†Law Evaluation

I don't disagree.

 

[drron]

Wow, they're lower than I thought, many news paper articles I read had them even higher. Many first world cities have much higher crime rates.

So post a link to prove it.

Watched Charlie Pickering the Weekly tonight.Some here have been going on about the Parisian's attitude to alcohol being more open.But most bars close at 2am,6am closing licenses are rare.Plus no alcohol in public places.

 

[opusman]

Some here have been going on about the Parisian's attitude to alcohol being more open.But most bars close at 2am,6am closing licenses are rare.Plus no alcohol in public places.

Also they tend to drink wine, not bundy & coke or jager bombs.

 

[anat0l]

Watched Charlie Pickering the Weekly tonight.Some here have been going on about the Parisian's attitude to alcohol being more open.But most bars close at 2am,6am closing licenses are rare.Plus no alcohol in public places.

No alcohol in public places? Really?

I thought drinking on the street in Paris was legal... or if not legal than at least tolerated / a blind eye turned. You probably are not allowed to sell alcohol on the streets, but have a bottle in your hand with your lover in the other arm and find a bench to sit down and swig it back, no one will take you in.

Ah well, naive thought.

 

[JohnK]

You do realise that you are responsible for your actions regardless of how drunk you are?

You are also responsible for your actions if you sell alcohol to a drunk person. There should be heavy fines and possible loss of liquor license.

We can go around and around in circles.

 

[anat0l]

You are also responsible for your actions if you sell alcohol to a drunk person. There should be heavy fines and possible loss of liquor license.

They should both be responsible, fined and jailed (the latter especially in the case of the drunk person).

In fact, in almost all cases, the principal responsibility for incidents should befall upon the drunk person, although that does not absolve a licensed establishment from their legal repercussions if they serve an obviously intoxicated person.

Actually, is there good evidence that licensed establishments have been knowingly serving intoxicated individuals in clear and wilful contravention of RSA guidelines (or, dare I say it, pure common sense and duty of care)? If so, then the loss of business resulting from lockouts can be argued as a sort of "punishment" to those establishments for not enforcing the guidelines properly, i.e. these businesses negligently contributed to the situation and thus deserve to suffer the consequences / have contributed to the suffering of the more scrupulous businesses.

 

[JohnK]

We know they continue to serve intoxicated individuals. They are so busy serving alcohol they only have 10 seconds to make an assessment. Also quite easy for the designated driver to purchase the alcohol on their behalf.

 

[OATEK]

No alcohol in public places? Really?

I thought drinking on the street in Paris was legal... or if not legal than at least tolerated / a blind eye turned. You probably are not allowed to sell alcohol on the streets, but have a bottle in your hand with your lover in the other arm and find a bench to sit down and swig it back, no one will take you in.

Ah well, naive thought.

If you sit for an hour or two on the Champ de Mars, enjoying a small repast of bread, cheese and wine, there seems to be no repercussions from the passing Gendarmerie. If on the other hand you are wandering around with a bucket of dodgy bottles of bubbly and trying to sell them to people, you are right in their sights.

 

[drron]

Yes I know the Paris law is routinely ignored.