Is Sydney Really This Bad? [Lockout Laws]

[puppysparkes]

Elections are a great thing.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

What is really hideous about the Sydney laws is that they don't cover the Star Casino, and other venues can obtain late licenses PROVIDED they only offer poker machines and no other entertainment except " background entertainment".
So live music is dead, but f*cking poker machines are allowed.
Disgraceful.

 

[jb747]

To be honest, I always thought Sydney was a dump.

 

[Hvr]

I'll take the nanny state bait.

Laws that just make it much harder to do the right thing as against those that continually thumbing their noses at the law.

Having to wear a helmet to ride a bicycle regardless of whether commuting along a main road or a short ride to the local shops.

<snip>

Probably for the same reason I have to wear my seat belt even though the speed limit is 40 (soon to be 30) km/h in some areas.

Even though no cyclist has ever been responsible for a collision (just ask them) when one does occur they inevitably suffer the most serious injuries.

 

[Milefest]

Probably for the same reason I have to wear my seat belt even though the speed limit is 40 (soon to be 30) km/h in some areas.

Even though no cyclist has ever been responsible for a collision (just ask them) when one does occur they inevitably suffer the most serious injuries.

In many jurisdictions if travelling below 25km/h, a seat belt isn't required.

 

[Warks]

Visited the Australian Museum in College St yesterday and on leaving mid-afternoon we encountered a big crowd in Hyde Park taking in the vibes of some concert. We did see quite a few people in "Keep Sydney Open" T-shirts. My teenage daughter commented it looked like a "white people convention" and we noted a lot of "fedoras and neck-beards". It was only on getting home and looking at the news online that I discovered it was some sort of rally in favour of being able to drink all night and beat the cr@p out of each other.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Visited the Australian Museum in College St yesterday and on leaving mid-afternoon we encountered a big crowd in Hyde Park taking in the vibes of some concert. We did see quite a few people in "Keep Sydney Open" T-shirts. My teenage daughter commented it looked like a "white people convention" and we noted a lot of "fedoras and neck-beards". It was only on getting home and looking at the news online that I discovered it was some sort of rally in favour of being able to drink all night and beat the cr@p out of each other.

Sorry but this encapsualtes the moralising tone of the legislation.
Your last sentence conflates "being able to drink all night" and "beat the cr@p out of each other".
Now perhaps your average middle class middle aged suburban family doesn't want to do either.
But the first is a perfectly legitimate thing for people - especially younger, single people - to do.
While the second is a criminal offence of which no one is in favour.

I agree there was and is a need to do something about violence.
I don't agree that lock out laws were the most appropriate solution for the problem.

 

[penegal]

I think that is a little unfair and emotive.

It's also important to distinguish between "drinking all night" which could imply binge drinking to get drunk, and consuming alcohol while engaged in other activities (e.g. live music, dance parties, etc) which are perfectly legitimate forms of recreation IMHO.

 

[penegal]

Violence is a problem, and Melbourne has grappled with the same issues as Sydney and Brisbane currently do.

There is "easy" answer as we would have already adopted that.

But entirely shutting down your city as an arts an entertainment precinct to stop excessive drinking and violence in a small number of people seems a little short sighted to me.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

I think that is a little unfair and emotive.

It's also important to distinguish between "drinking all night" which could imply binge drinking to get drunk, and consuming alcohol while engaged in other activities (e.g. live music, dance parties, etc) which are perfectly legitimate forms of recreation IMHO.

Lockout laws do nothing to address binge drinking.
If you're binge drinking you'll be drunk well before they kick in.
Whereas if you are aiming to stay out all night you have to pace yourself.

 

[JohnK]

I agree there was and is a need to do something about violence.
I don't agree that lock out laws were the most appropriate solution for the problem.

Nothing has been done to address the problem. Lockout laws are the first thing that has been done.

You can't keep saying we know there is a problem and doing nothing about it. Lives are lost. People and families are feeling the pain. Enough is enough.

I don't agree that the casino is excluded from the lockout laws but at the first sign of a problem there are 5-10 security guards there with more on the way. Misbehave and you are out.

I was out Star City until ~4:00am on Saturday night. Not one drink all night. Proud of that but that's another story. I was scared for a few minutes. Was watching a hurdle race from the UK when some commotion broke out behind me. Security were there and asked me to move out of the way.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Simple measure to combat the violence - change the elements of manslaughter to remove the requirment to prove that the accused turned their mind to the possibility of causing death but hit them regardless.
Simple measure to improve public order - late night public transport to get people home and out of the "bad" areas.
Simle measure to crack down on violent crime - more police in the entertainment precincts.
But all these would cost money. So they haven't been implemented.

Melbourne tried lock out laws and abandoned them, so why not look at what they've done instead?
European cities don't have either lock out laws or a problem with these kinds of attacks - we could learn from them.

Street violence was declining in Sydney before the lock out laws.
Domestic violence has been escalating.
So yes, enough is enough, and sending men home to drink is not the answer.

 

[Milefest]

And and Kings Cross is more than double as dangerous as before due to the lockouts..

There was a good discussion about this on another forum.

...I really wish mainstream media would present the violence statistics in a more meaningful manner. Assaults are down ~40%, but foot traffic is down 80%, which means that the ratio of assaults to pedestrians has gone up. So if you are walking in the streets of the city now, you are more likely to be involved in violence than before the laws came in.

I feel like you're rehashing the propaganda-esque claims by the media when you claim that people are only upset because "it's our right to go out and drink", which, while true, is definitely not the main cause of the outrage. Eight iconic venues have been closed already (Q Bar, Spectrum, Backroom, Soho, Hugo's just to name a few)- this isn't just about not having places to go out, it's about the loss of hundreds of jobs, and it's about the loss of ability for young musicians to have somewhere to start. In 2011, live music income was $400 million- $200 million of which trickled down to the cleaners, bartenders, stagehands, advertising companies, event staff, AV companies... The list goes on, and in the past year alone, live music income has gone down 40%. That's a huge hit to the economy.

Yes, we all want violence to go down, but there are far better ways to achieve it than virtually destroying a community. Look at how other major cities (sorry Newcastle) address violence issues- 24 hour public transport, strong police presence, more street entertainment to keep people occupied, ID scanners in all venues (so if you get kicked out of a club, you don't get in anywhere else that night), again, the list goes on. This is a bandaid fix. Having a thriving nightlife AND safety don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'll leave you with a message from Keep Sydney Open's website, the main organisation against the lockout laws, and the organiser of today's rally. They are the real voice of this campaign, not whoever you've seen saying that they just want to get drunk for longer. I hope this will help you understand what the fuss is about. Feel free to ask any more questions you may have!

"This is not about entertainment vs safety, both can be achieved simultaneously. Our legislators have an obligation to preserve freedoms for law-abiding citizens while making a night out safer.

Crucial live music venues in Sydney have closed, several hundred jobs have been lost and the magic around our city is fading. All this for a minimal impact on violence, which was shown to be in decline since small-bar licenses were granted in 2008.

We have distinctly chosen to avoid any beer-barns, alcohol companies and liquor industry groups from our alliance, because we believe that there are better things about nightlife than just the consumption and sale of alcohol."

It's extremely easy to support lockouts especially when it doesn't actually inconvenience you. You hear the "but.. violonce!" statement used by a lot of worried armchair critics, but really, the vast majority of people have an enjoyable, safe night. If it irrationally scares you, no one is forcing you to go out.

 

[JohnK]

Street violence was declining in Sydney before the lock out laws.
Domestic violence has been escalating.
So yes, enough is enough, and sending men home to drink is not the answer.

You keep saying sending kids home to drink is not the answer. Letting them stay out and getting paraletic drunk is not the answer either.

You and I are not going to agree on this issue. Think the starting point is to try and work out why people have a need to get paraletic drunk at least once a week. Once that is understood then maybe we can move forward.

 

[Warks]

Wasn't this shown to be bunkum? I'm sure no credible statistician could correlate two completely different types of stats and come up with that conclusion.

I really wish mainstream media would present the violence statistics in a more meaningful manner. Assaults are down ~40%, but foot traffic is down 80%, which means that the ratio of assaults to pedestrians has gone up.

(and my "beat the cr@p out of each other" comment was just trolling)

 

[esseeeayeenn]

You keep saying sending kids home to drink is not the answer. Letting them stay out and getting paraletic drunk is not the answer either.

You and I are not going to agree on this issue. Think the starting point is to try and work out why people have a need to get paraletic drunk at least once a week. Once that is understood then maybe we can move forward.

No, the starting point is to work out why some people hit other people.
Alcohol isn't the cause, it is just a factor in the pattern of where and when this occurs.

 

[drron]

Definitely not just armchair critics-I have already linked to articles from Sydney and Adelaide ED departments re the level of alcohol fuelled violence.
And why can California support a vibrant music scene with no trouble attracting tourists when last drinks are 2am-an hour before Sydney's last drinks.Same for DC,Hawaii,Boston,Philly and most other States of the USA.

 

[Milefest]

I miss the days when Sydney bragged about how vibrant and safe it was..

Now "violence is spiraling out of control". And the most violent venues are exempt.

"but... violence!"

 

[whatmeworry]

You keep saying sending kids home to drink is not the answer. Letting them stay out and getting paraletic drunk is not the answer either.

You and I are not going to agree on this issue. Think the starting point is to try and work out why people have a need to get paraletic drunk at least once a week. Once that is understood then maybe we can move forward.

When Melbourne had a trial lockout, we found it just meant we had a concentration of people "under the weather" out at the same time.

What some people don't talk about is the mixing of alcohol with other drugs. In addition some of the one knockout punches I have seen on video, most of the punchers looked quite in control/sober.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

When Melbourne had a trial lockout, we found it just meant we had a concentration of people "under the weather" out at the same time.

What some people don't talk about is the mixing of alcohol with other drugs. In addition some of the one knockout punches I have seen on video, most of the punchers looked quite in control/sober.

And most of the one punch attacks have happened relatively early in the evening.
Also most of the perpetrators have had criminal records, with non-alcohol-related violent offences, suggesting that alcohol isn't the primary cause of their behaviour.