Is the QFF program really a 'frequent flyer' program???

[japansuki]

Howdy,


I have been a Gold QFF for nearly 2 years and since December 1st 2009 until Oct 2010, I have flown 62 flights on Qantas with another 8 booked before my status points expire on nov 30th. That's a total of 70 flights in one calender year. An average of 1 flight a week is pretty freqent, I would say. They have all been either Red-e-Deals or Super Savers as they are the only class of fare I can book (business travel). Regardless of the fare type of distance of travel (domestic Australia including frequent SYD-DWN rtn, SYD-PER rtn, and to NZ - SYD - WEL rtn, this has still not allowed me to get sufficient credit status points to move up. I am so close yet still so far off:


Status credits earned from 01 Dec 2009: 950
Additional Status credits required by 30 Nov 2010 to attain Platinum: 450


My question is why are frequent flyers not rewarded for their loyalty as opposed to those that fly a couple of long haul business class segments and are catapulted to Platinum?

I think it is a very unfair system and loyal customers of Qantas should be rewarded appropriately.

The Qantas website states at:


"Status credits - they are simply a measure of how often and how far you fly" - not the 'fare type' or 'class flown'.


What are your thoughts? I might be way off track here in my thinking. I have written to Alan Joyce with no response, although Qantas Executive Relations has responded stating that '...unfortunately we are unable to fulfill your request' although they have stated that they can see my point and agree that it this part of the program is not overly transparent. I am about to write to norris Carter and see what he says...


Cheers.

 

[moa999]

QFF is not actually a flyer program at all, more like a freqent credit card user program.

Status is more a $ reward program - Qantas makes more money off the premium fares hence rewards accordingly. In fact - the Qantas program is probably more generous to cheaper fares than the Virgin program which is $ based.

eg.
You do 70 SYD-MEL red e-deals at $120 each.
Total SCs = 700 Gold qualify
$ spnd = $8,400
$/SC = 12

You do 70 SYD-MEL flex @ say $350
Total SCs = 1400 Plat qualify
$spend = $24,500
$/SC 17.5

You do 6 SYD-HKG returns in business at $5000 each return
Total SCs = 1,440 Plat Qualify
$spend = $30,000
$/SC = 20.8

So you are being rewarded better than those buying more expensive fares. You just need to spend more

 

[harvyk]

I see it as a frequent flyer program, the more frequently you fly the more you are rewarded. In your case you have been given free access to the QP simply because of the amount you travel, you have also been given points which can be used for free flights and upgrades.

I know a few other QFF's that have done some travel, but haven't gotten anything.

Now like most things there are shortcuts, I also expect I travel more frequently than some of the WP's here (I'm only a lowly PS), it's just some of them have managed to get the good deals, or fly J \ F flights which really earn the SC's.

As moa999 said, be thankful that you actually earn anything on QFF on sales \ red-e-deals \ super savers. There are some airlines where the same fares would earn you zip, so rather than a SG, you'd still be a NB, and with no reward for your frequency.

 

[simongr]

Extracts from moa999 used below

Note the base frequent flyer points you have earned as well (status bonus in brackets)

You do 70 SYD-MEL red e-deals at $120 each. - 70,000 points (105,000 assume gold status)
$ spnd = $8,400 = 12c/point (8c/point)
Distance flown = 32,060

You do 70 SYD-MEL flex @ say $350 - 70,000 points (140,000)
$spend = $24,500 = 35c/point (17.5c/point)
Distance flown = 32,060

You do 6 SYD-HKG returns in business at $5000 each return - 97,629 (125,523)
$spend = $30,000 = 30.7c/point (23.9 c/point)
Distance flown = 55,788

So a less frequent J int'l flier flies further and pays more for their points.

The only difference is frequency. 6 international J fares would be considered by most people to be frequent - and I would surmise a lot of people would consider that conceptually to be "more" frequent than weekly trips to Melbourne. Factually not accurate but there would be a perception of being away more.

 

[markis10]

Its a rebate program, no different to moneybackco etc etc, you get a rebate on your spending activity (or someone else's spending activity) so long as you choose to spend your money on product that Qantas gets a commission on. Should you decide to spend your money on Qantas products where they make more margin, you get extra rebates, like free beer or more luggage, its labelled as status, which starts with the same letter as spend .

 

[MelUser]

It sounds like you would be better off joining a North American airline program - eg American Airlines where actual distance flown and/or segments flown is rewarded.

Mind you the QF system does reward clever Australians who fly to USA and take Instant Upgrade fares on American Airlines!!

 

[simongr]

Not wanting to labour the point but the OP is in fact being better rewarded on a points basis for BIS miles flown than a less frequent international flier.

It is unlikely that AAdvantage will be much of an AAdvantage due to the low value fares purchased.

 

[serfty]

Maybe you could try to maximize your travel when you go to NZ the next couple of times. It costs AUD630 to book LAN flights AKL-SYD-AKL and earns 160 SC's.

e.g. If you need to travel in November and December then make the following bookings:

1. SYD-WLG Nov, WLG-SYD Dec (QF)
2. WLG-AKL Nov, AKL-WLG Dec (NZ/JQ)
3. AKL-SYD Nov, SYD-AKL Dec (LAN)

This makes two trips:

• November
  SYD-WLG
  WLG-AKL-SYD
  
• December:
  SYD-AKL-WLG
  WLG-SYD
  

That will earn a minimum of 200 SC's.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

It's a frequent spender program... QF makes $$ when points go into your account. Sure they make a quick buck when you fly too - but that's nothing in comparision to the millions of 'frequent flyers' depositing points into their accounts.

It's in their interest to have high buy rate and low value sell rate. Virtual currency is one of the hottest businesses on the planet right now (think zynga and qq) and this is exactly the same deal.

If it was to be totally fair, QF would make SC earned on a purely $spent basis - but that would screw up a lot of folk's plans.

 

[medhead]

Extracts from moa999 used below

Note the base frequent flyer points you have earned as well (status bonus in brackets)

You do 70 SYD-MEL red e-deals at $120 each. - 70,000 points (105,000 assume gold status)
$ spnd = $8,400 = 12c/point (8c/point)
Distance flown = 32,060

How do you get 105000 points in this example for someone with gold status? SYD-MEL is 439 miles, even with a platinum 100% bonus one still gets 1000 points per flight.

I do agree that the OP is being better rewarded on a spend basis.

 

[Stephen65]

It's more of a frequent credit card spender program for many people. I fly about half a dozen times a year and in the last year more than 90% of my QFF points have come from credit card spend.

 

[samh004]

I'd say it's still a frequent flyer program as the only way to get real status (and with QP now worth a little less) is to fly and collect SC's.

Those above have mentioned LAN to AKL as a way to get to Platinum. You could also use your points on JASA's.

 

[simongr]

How do you get 105000 points in this example for someone with gold status? SYD-MEL is 439 miles, even with a platinum 100% bonus one still gets 1000 points per flight.

I do agree that the OP is being better rewarded on a spend basis.

My bad - apologies for that.

 

[anat0l]

Bottom line is that most FFPs are not really FFPs if you want the pure definition.

As someone said, you could fly a lot on really cheap fares on some airlines and get very little or even no reward. Then you could still have the high flyer with a few J trips that gets a handsome status.

The USA based programs probably fare better because they have qualification based on segments, BIS miles or points - you simply qualify the best way you can. In other parts of the world, the most common qualification measurement is points (i.e. the absolute number of miles flown and the fare type / class), and it is still arguable whether they are frequent flyer or frequent spender programs, and I'm gravitating all the time towards the latter.

I believe that the term 'frequent flyer' program may be rather dated. In the infancy of such programs, frequent flyer was probably applicable since people that did fly relatively often earned the status and the rest really did not fly often at all - the divide between these groups was huge. This is still somewhat applicable (i.e. those that don't "fly often" aren't "rewarded" with status), but now that the market is much larger and every man, woman and their dog is a member of a FFP, the term 'FF' starts to lose its meaning. At the same time, loyalty to a company is usually a measure of who really brings in the money for them. Again, presumably in the old days where travel was very expensive, the only people bringing in the money were those that were "frequent flyers". Now, it is a very different situation.

 

[harvyk]

now that the market is much larger and every man, woman and their dog is a member of a FFP, the term 'FF' starts to lose its meaning.

When I first joined I needed to pay $82.50 to join QFF, so for the first year of my serious flying I never did (I wish I had now, but 20\20 highsight and all) so I expect that you either had actual frequent flyers, or people who like to pay money for pieces of plastic.

But now there is no cost to become a QFF, I think the notion of having PS as the first real level is now the one which has merit (and I expect the one which QF is now using). Someone who holds a PS card or higher really is a frequent flyer. (I'd almost say the same for those who hold QP cards, as there is a relatively high initial cost for one off flyers otherwise)

Someone who simply holds a QFF NB card is simply a points collector and not really a FF.

 

[Metabourke]

It is, of course, entirely Qantas' choice about how they wish to recognise frequent flyers and to whom to provide status benefits. Its the passengers' choice whether to play by those, or someone else's, rules.

I used to be QF Platinum, but then had a couple of years where I did very little travel and dropped back to Bronze. For the last few years I've travelled about 200,000 miles/years, mostly in economy. I want lounge access, priority check-in, priority boarding and priority baggage. To qualify for QF Gold based on status credits would have taken me a lot longer than qualifying for equivalent status on other airlines, so I'm now Star Gold and Skyteam Elite+ and give very little of my business to Qantas (just flights using points credited to my QFF by my credit card). Perhaps its time to switch to a SQ linked credit card.

When I occassionally fly on Cathay I use my Asia Miles membership because I earn full miles, rather than the heavily discounted rate offered by QFF. It seems Qantas and Cathay don't really behave towards each other as alliance partners - Qantas still prefers to code share into China with Skyteam aspirant, China Eastern, rather than with Dragonair.

I did consider trying to qualify for OneWorld status with AAdvantage as its mileage based, but the OneWorld FF programs all seem to require at least 4 sectors on 'home' flights, and my travels don't usually take me to, or via, the US.

 

[simongr]

When I occassionally fly on Cathay I use my Asia Miles membership because I earn full miles, rather than the heavily discounted rate offered by QFF. It seems Qantas and Cathay don't really behave towards each other as alliance partners - Qantas still prefers to code share into China with Skyteam aspirant, China Eastern, rather than with Dragonair.

Why in particular would you need a codeshare? Points earn on a CX flight number are the same as a KA flight number. Obviously not great if flying on discounted whY but if in J then the earn is the same sort of.

Earning for CX is not much different to other alliance partners - 0.5 for discount whY/0 for heavily discounted whY - similar to other partners.

 

[thewinchester]

My question is why are frequent flyers not rewarded for their loyalty as opposed to those that fly a couple of long haul business class segments and are catapulted to Platinum?

I don't agree with this sentiment at all.

Status credits are a good measure of your loyalty and value to the airline - and they reward accordingly. The more SC's you earn, the more rewards you get.

I'm a lowly QPNB, and even with my 10-20 sectors a year I still get reasonable rewards. I get good seating allocation, so I'm not stuck up the back of the plane, I've been able to access ODU's/upgrades, and if there's been any trouble staff are very quick to sort me out.

The lounges are always spick and span, some may be a little old but they're always working on that. You'll always get a good drink, something freshly made & of good taste and quality to eat, it'll be comfortable and the staff will help you out with anything reasonable they can, as well as there being decent free internet access that never plays up for me.

With exception to the removal of domestic priority check-in benefits from next year, I feel that for the value I deliver to Qantas I get a reasonable return in recognition.

 

[simongr]

Also six returns to HKG is around 120 hours BIS and 70 flights SYD-MEL is max 105 hours BIS - pay more, fly more with the airline and still get less reward - something doesnt add up ...

 

[Metabourke]

Why in particular would you need a codeshare? Points earn on a CX flight number are the same as a KA flight number.

Its a QF flight number (and full miles) that I want, not a CX flight number.

Currently, if I want full miles on Dragonair, I need to use Asia Miles, rather than QFF. And on a through trip from Australia, rather than mess around trying to get 2 FF programs on one booking, I'd prefer to just take a CX flight to Hong Kong rather than QF, and credit the whole trip to Asia Miles.

Although I take long haul flights from Australia most months, as someone who flies mostly to and around China, the QFF now has little relevance. OneWorld is very weak in the world's second largest domestic market. They offer no domestic flights. And apart from Dragonair, OneWorld members serve very few ports in China. Yet no OneWorld member chooses to codeshares on Dragonair. Why?

Several OneWorld members have codeshare and/or FF links with China Eastern, but they weren't able to capitalise on those links and China Eastern is now to join Skyteam. So OneWorld is left with trying to bring Hainan on board. I assume that CX wouldn't want Hainan subsidiary, Hong Kong Airlines, to be part of OneWorld.