Is there such a thing as earning points for free?

[RooFlyer]

I would argue a different perspective. The ALL-QF (or ALL-QR etc) does generate you additional points over someone that isn't using it. However the otehr person may feel free to explore all sorts of other options - both flights and hotels and thus this is where the murky blurred lines of the cost is hard to figure out (and deliberately so).

I can choose to stay at IHG or Rydges etc (and frequently do - I've said before I have no 'loyalty' to hotels), but if I do choose to stay at Accor, if I haven't linked the accounts, I get Accor points for the cost of the room (with all its components) + CC surcharge. If I have linked the accounts, I have the same cost but I get additional QFF points. Again, on my definition, points are free if there is no cost or additional cost over what you would have done anyway.

In the Accor/QF example, it is encouraging you to stay at Accor when there might be a perfectly suitable alternative next door for less cash.

Yes, but if I DO stay at Accor, I have the same costs whether or not I have linked the accounts. See reply above.

 

[serfty]

HSBC may have an option but you need to be turning over a reasonable amount.

HSBC Premier credit card - too good to be true?

Is the Premier the best SQ earning card, and with no annual fee? First, I just need to have my $9000 salary credited into Everyday Global Account, which is free / no fee. (then just move the money back to my normal bank) Then apply for Premier World Mastercard which is $0 annual fee. So first...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

Off topic, but an easier to get HSBC Global account can earn rebates up to $50 per month at the cost of depositing $2k for a few minutes each month.

 

[levelnine]

Yes, but if I DO stay at Accor, I have the same costs whether or not I have linked the accounts. See reply above.

The whole point of a loyalty program is to get you choose that provider when it is the suboptimal choice.

At that point, all points are doing is recouping some of your loss.

To be clear, it doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad choice for you (eg you might like the familiarity of Accor hotels).

If you only ever chose a hotel when it was the absolutely optimal choice, you are going to have points in 10 different loyalty programs and you'll be paying for the points in terms of suboptimal redemptions to avoid expiry, etc.

 

[SydneySwan]

Interesting discussion. The only points that I think I can definitively say were free are these;

In 1998 Qantas credited me with points for taking a BA flight from Aberdeen to London in J. I was in Melbourne at the time.

In 2000 Travelex credited my Qantas account with 271 points twice so 271 were free points. They repeated this error in 2001 and 2006.

In 2012 I transferred 5000 points from my Amex into 3000 IHG points. IHG credited the 3000 points twice.

Unfortunately these sort of system errors are less common these days. In fact they have reversed - you commonly have to make missing points claims.

 

[RooFlyer]

The whole point of a loyalty program is to get you choose that provider when it is the suboptimal choice.

At that point, all points are doing is recouping some of your loss.

To be clear, it doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad choice for you (eg you might like the familiarity of Accor hotels).

I'm afraid you've missed the points I made about my choices. But that's OK, you aren't to know what drives my personal behaviors.

For me, its not about loyalty programs and how we change our behaviour to them. I never stay at a hotel because of the loyalty program - I stay because its where I want to stay, at the price point I want to pay. But, having decided to stay at a particular place, I'll take advantage of its loyalty program (if it has one - many independents I stay at, don't) AND in the case of Accor, having made that decision and picked an Accor place, and then paid all of Accor's fees and everything else I would have done anyway, I then get QFF points on top.

So going back to the topic of the thread, and under the definition of 'free' points proposed by Matt, these points (but not the Accor ones) are 'free' - there is no additional cost or effort or doing anything beyond what I was going to do anyway, because I needed a place to stay for the night.

If you only ever chose a hotel when it was the absolutely optimal choice, you are going to have points in 10 different loyalty programs and you'll be paying for the points in terms of suboptimal redemptions to avoid expiry, etc.

I AM member of 10 hotel programs! and for 6 (Shangri-La, Hyatt, Radisson, LemonTree, Oberoi One and Rydges) I do let points expire or languish because there aren't enough to do anything with and I don't go out of my way to stay with them to keep them alive. I don't care. Accor, IHG, Marriott, and Hilton I can slowly accumulate points and I redeem them at some stage. No, those certainly aren't free but that's not the point I was making about Accor+Qantas.

 

[NM]

They are NEVER free, but a lot of the time you pay the same for a good or product or service as everyone else who is also funding it, so from your POV it's being funded by others. Same as when you're not charged a fee for using credit cards but others pay the same for cash.


It's built into their cost-vs-profit model, if they're paying more for something then they can't pay you as much.

In most businesses, the employer pays no more or no less depending on whether the employee adds their FF number to the booking. Might be different with government fares where they get a cheaper fare that does not include FF points earning.

 

[Forg]

In most businesses, the employer pays no more or no less depending on whether the employee adds their FF number to the booking. Might be different with government fares where they get a cheaper fare that does not include FF points earning.

The non-government employer is paying more for fares, because EVERYONE is paying more for fares, if the FF program didn’t exist they’d pay less (as would everyone else).

Government doesn’t get cheaper fares due to not getting FF points; doing that was actually a cost to the airlines as it was an exception! Probably long-since recouped I guess, but the government sections certainly don’t get billed any less ‘cos of it (better half had the ‘pleasure’ of needing to balance a budget which involved flights ‘til last year).
No that was due to the public service fear of the media, the fear that Ol’ Rupert would decide to bleat under a Labor government that it was “corruption” that public servants were getting something “for free” that private citizens that weren’t travelling didn’t get.

 

[snabbu]

The closest to free points for me has been in the last eight weeks I've had the WW "spend any amount for 2000 points" four times on one single account so the 4,000 QF points have cost me a grand total of four green seedless grapes.

 

[levelnine]

No, those certainly aren't free but that's not the point I was making about Accor+Qantas.

So we agree they aren't free. All you described with the Accor+Qantas partnership is a points optimisation.

To give a simple example, you can shop at Woolworths and not swipe your Everyday Rewards card. That doesn't mean you are getting the Qantas points for free if you do swipe your card and opt for Qantas points conversion.

 

[RooFlyer]

All you described with the Accor+Qantas partnership is a points optimisation.

Yes, its optimised by getting something additional, for nothing.

To give a simple example, you can shop at Woolworths and not swipe your Everyday Rewards card. That doesn't mean you are getting the Qantas points for free if you do swipe your card and opt for Qantas points conversion.

That's not the same thing at all. The word here is conversion - they are the same earning. You can have EDR points, or Qantas points, but not both. You don't get anything extra, merely opt for what a punter might think is more valuable.

With Accor+Qantas you do get something extra, for no additional cost or effort, if you have accounts linked Vs not having accounts linked.

I think we've exhausted this aspect and will probably not agree - it is AFF, after all

 

[Denali]

For the likes of Coles and Woolies points, Im selling my data for points. For cards, I have to shop anyways and pay the card every month. Points have gotten us many J flights over the years.

 

[levelnine]

With Accor+Qantas you do get something extra, for no additional cost or effort, if you have accounts linked Vs not having accounts linked.

You have been misled by the fact that you have to click a single button into thinking you are getting something for free. By your definition, if you were automatically enrolled in Accor+Qantas, it would no longer be free lol.

You have chosen the wrong comparator. Your comparator is the person who chooses not to opt into Accor+Qantas. The correct comparator is someone who books the exact same hotel room through Expedia for 17%+ cash back (remember, no price matches on cash back!) and foregoes the Accor+Qantas points.

 

[WilsonM]

As I said before, it comes down to your definition of 'free' (which is subjective) - in the OP, Matt's definition of free is something that has no marginal cost to the individual (i.e. you're going to do it anyway), and you get something out of it. My definition of free is more along the lines of it has no absolute cost to the individual (i.e. it requires zero outlay whatsoever, regardless of whether you're going to do it yourself). Both takes (and others in between) have arguments for and against, and I think are both valid.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Under the unambiguous definition of the word 'free', points are definitely not free, but I note:

1) They lock you into a specific airline/programme.
2) The cost of points if managed well can be well below paying for the same flight (I always think of it as me paying the ecomony fare price but flying in business or above).

 

[RooFlyer]

By your definition, if you were automatically enrolled in Accor+Qantas, it would no longer be free lol.

Yes it would still be free, because I am still getting something (QFF points) for no additional cost or effort.

Put it another way - you tell me what the additional cost is in earning the extra QFF when I use an Accor hotel, when I was going to anyway, and the cost is the same whether or not I have the accounts linked? How much more am I paying to get the QFF points in this case?

1) They lock you into a specific airline/programme

Perhaps you, but not me. I belong to about 6 airline programs and 10 hotel programs & I fly and stay with whoever I please - including non 'loyalty program' airlines/places. I take the benefits they want to give me, but I give no loyalty in return. Only mugs get tied into one or two programs and voluntarily wear the handcuffs and pay the higher prices.

 

[levelnine]

Put it another way - you tell me what the additional cost is in earning the extra QFF when I use an Accor hotel, when I was going to anyway, and the cost is the same whether or not I have the accounts linked? How much more am I paying to get the QFF points in this case?

The exact same Accor hotel room is available for $200 on Expedia and Accor's website.

Person A: Pays through Expedia and earns 17% cash back but no points
Person B: Pays through Accor and earns Accor points
Person C: Pays through Accor and earns Accor+Qantas points

Loyalty programs absolutely love when Person C thinks they're getting something for free (they've 'hacked' the system in the language of points influencers) because they compare themselves to Person B lol.

 

[RooFlyer]

The exact same Accor hotel room is available for $200 on Expedia and Accor's website.

Person A: Pays through Expedia and earns 17% cash back but no points
Person B: Pays through Accor and earns Accor points
Person C: Pays through Accor and earns Accor+Qantas points

Loyalty programs absolutely love when Person C thinks they're getting something for free (they've 'hacked' the system in the language of points influencers) because they compare themselves to Person B lol.

You can keep 'lol'-ing and make your condescending remarks, but you forgot to address my q above - can you tell me the extra cost of gaining the QFF points in an Accor stay with accounts linked Vs not having accounts linked with the exact same costs?

It's irrelevant to this example that I could get the room cheaper somewhere else. I could sleep on the street for that matter. If I do choose to book and stay with Accor (because I never use third party sites to book), in one case I pay X and get no QFF points. In the other, I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.

And it's hardly a 'hack of the system'' when its widely promoted by Accor and QFF .

 

[levelnine]

It's irrelevant to this example that I could get the room cheaper somewhere else. I could sleep on the street for that matter. If I do choose to book and stay with Accor (because I never use third party sites to book), in one case I pay X and get no QFF points. In the other, I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.

All points are free if you choose a sub-optimal comparator.

$100 dinner at a restaurant

Person A: Pays cash
Person B: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 but forgets to enroll in Qantas Frequent Flyer program
Person C: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 and is enrolled in the program.

Person C looking at Person B: 'I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.'

 

[SYD]

All points are free if you choose a sub-optimal comparator.

$100 dinner at a restaurant

Person A: Pays cash
Person B: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 but forgets to enroll in Qantas Frequent Flyer program
Person C: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 and is enrolled in the program.

Person C looking at Person B: 'I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.'

Person D (like me) pays with a QF earning card with zero annual fee and gets 1:1.
Person E (whips out their Corp AMEX that they don't pay for) and fights me for the free 1:1 earn!

 

[oz_mark]

I personally would say that points are "free" if you're paying no marginal cost just for those points for something you were going to do/buy anyway. But is that a correct way of looking at it?

What do you think?

I think pretty much all my points come at "no marginal cost" to me, but I in no way view them as free.