It's Time To Address The Elephant.........oops !!.....The Kangaroo in the Room.

[RichardMEL]

safety. national pride. and double status credit promotions.

not long before covid you had the ridiculous situation where QF’s competitors were offering quadruple daily frequencies, on new aircraft, with full flat beds… compared to QF’s single flight with angled beds in business class.

On paper, QF should have gone the way of the dodo. But somehow… I think a mix of the three elements above… they made billion dollar profits.

I agree with you.

The other factor is a huge domestic market dominance (also see: AC and to some extent BA).

QF has what, >60% of the domestic market share IIRC... even if that figure is not quite accurate it's still by far the biggest in the country (Bonza won't change this much with just a handful of aircraft and niche routes).

So with that comes a huge amount of arrogance. That and the QFF tie ins with your major supermarket chain and other utilities etc.

With VA2 the only reasonably serious competition on domestic routes (ZL is still a mozzie really) QF can dump capacity and frequency advantage where it wants. VA can't just pop a 330 or 787 on transcon or to beef up availability at key times (remember the days QF would pop 747-300's and -400's onto some domestic sectors at high demand perods?).

but yeah mostly you're right it's the DSC promos

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Maybe what we need, is one colleague who would just/have just flown into SYD T1, and have a bit of time to do some recon for us.
Just walk around like a lost soul, to that spot where the QF dom transfer zone at T1 used to be, and see if its still operating as of now.
Then over time next few weeks, another person does the same and see what they do with that spot.

 

[george27]

For Get me outta here, if as I get/understand it, that QF have closed their QFi to QFd checkin facility at T1, and thus the security screening at SYD T1. (for T1 to T3 processing only, I mean), then the QF transfer bus from T1 to T3 would have to use the public road aka Airport Dr, as does Tbus, drop pax off outside the terminal at T3, can't be inside the T3 QFd gate 15 anymore.
Going the other way, T3 to T1, the bus would still use the secure domestic road, as a person will still have to do international screening at T1.

The QFi to QFd checkin facility at T1 was open on Thursday.

 

[Mr Bill]

Ok....... but what time was that....... previously closed between 1030 and 1330 daily.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

The other factor is a huge domestic market dominance (also see: AC and to some extent BA).

The comparison you make between QF and AC is not fair. Canada has strict foreign ownership laws that virtually make it illegal for key infrastructure like transport or telecoms to have more than a small foreign ownership stake. This is why AC rules the skies over Canada with WestJet a distant second in that regard. Meanwhile, in Australia we've got a number of domestic carriers including Virgin Australia that give the 'Roo a run for its money. I'd also say that the BA comparison isn't fair either since BA has pretty poor domestic coverage with the likes of RyanAir, KLM and other airlines filling in the domestic service BA misses.

Is there as much domestic competition here in Australia compared to, say, the United States? Absolutely not, but again it's not a fair comparison. There are many profitable routes in the US and they also have the geography advantage that makes flying the only game in town. For instance, aside from Perth, can anyone name a single city on the west coast of Australia that passengers would fly to regularly? I can't think of any! Sure we've got the Golden triangle between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane, but that's about it for major regional routes that drive demand. Even when we compare Australia to Canada domestic travel it's not a fair comparison either. They've got two such regional golden triangles (called RapidAirs): Toronto, Ottawa and Montréal and Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton. And on top of that they have coast to coast demand on routes like Montréal to Vancouver or Toronto to Vancouver or Calgary to Toronto.

-RooFlyer88

 

[RichardMEL]

Well my point was about market dominance - however achieved and to the customer's perception (and access) which is not related to foreign ownership or whatever. I mean look at these forums most agree VA provides a better product, at a better price and with better customer service of all types BUT (and the huge BUT) relates often to network partners, international options (they are better than they were) and perhaps even a measure of confidence given VA went through the whole bankruptsy/sale/restruture thing. I am not personally saying this is bad, but there ma be a perception there (specially after AN) in the marketplace. Fair enough with BA I'd forgotten about the LCC/ULCC's (I guess Bonza,Jetstar fit those areas).

The US is a totally different market for so many reasons so I didn't mention it - 5ish major and many more minor carriers, huge populations supporting so many routes etc. We don't have that in any kind of way. Canada is closer to us in huge geography with a small population spread out and two major carriers, with a few dogs and cats and some new ULCC's.

Anyway what I was really trying to say is that QF knows it has a huge market share and leverages it endlessly through both the air network (frequency, reach, connections), alliance partners around the world and of course on ground tie ins through loyalty programs. VA comes 2nd in just about all these areas (much like WestJet) - even though WS apparently has a better product and service.

So there's a kind of arrogance and complacency mindset to being so dominant domestically which leads to situations we have (and look at general reviews and perceptions of AC within Canada....).

it's this kind of market arrogance in the home market (despite ever diminishing share of international seats in/out of Oz) that QF has and forms part of the mindset that seems to pervade the management and drive some customer unfriendly choices.

 

[Mr Bill]

Back to my original thoughts.......... well done and 3 cheers to Choice and the ACCC......... enough said.

 

[OATEK]

Market arrogance seems to me an emotional label - market dominance and confidence that it will go unchallenged in the foreseeable is fair. At least when VA was flying internationally the was some AU based competition, although not a lot. Whatever preference individuals might express for the competition, QF has a natural advantage that it gained from the Ansett crash.

The present market conditions are somewhat unique, and it will be well into 2023 before genuine competition for international travel returns. Market forces, such as the competitive return of the Reindeer route, BA bringing their new fitout 787s to AU etc, will begin to see some tightening for QF, although of CX fails then it will be two steos forward, one step back. Until then there is little that can be done apart from sniping from the sidelines.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Market arrogance seems to me an emotional label - market dominance and confidence that it will go unchallenged in the foreseeable is fair. At least when VA was flying internationally the was some AU based competition, although not a lot. Whatever preference individuals might express for the competition, QF has a natural advantage that it gained from the Ansett crash.

The present market conditions are somewhat unique, and it will be well into 2023 before genuine competition for international travel returns. Market forces, such as the competitive return of the Reindeer route, BA bringing their new fitout 787s to AU etc, will begin to see some tightening for QF, although of CX fails then it will be two steos forward, one step back. Until then there is little that can be done apart from sniping from the sidelines.

Internationally, it's a level playing field since they must compete with the global airlines, many of whom offer better service, better connectivity and at a lower price than QF. Indeed, as some have previously said, they'd gladly book an SQ over a QF, particularly given SQ operates more international flights out of Australia than regional airline QF does.

Domestically, however, things are limited and that's being charitable. Sure if you're doing a Golden triangle run then you have some choices, but try flying out to LRE or PQQ and tell me what choices you've got now!

-RooFlyer88

 

[Mr Bill]

Three cheers for Choice and the ACCC
Hope burns eternal, so hopefully something good (in favor of the consumer) will come from the ACCC investigations.

 

[RichardMEL]

Market arrogance seems to me an emotional label - market dominance and confidence that it will go unchallenged in the foreseeable is fair. At least when VA was flying internationally the was some AU based competition, although not a lot. Whatever preference individuals might express for the competition, QF has a natural advantage that it gained from the Ansett crash.

The present market conditions are somewhat unique, and it will be well into 2023 before genuine competition for international travel returns. Market forces, such as the competitive return of the Reindeer route, BA bringing their new fitout 787s to AU etc, will begin to see some tightening for QF, although of CX fails then it will be two steos forward, one step back. Until then there is little that can be done apart from sniping from the sidelines.

Fair point.

What I meant by "arrogance" in respect to the dominant market position is part of that confidence you mention but also that mindset that we don't HAVE to invest in product or customer service that much just BECAUSE of that dominance.. Where as VA1, for example, had to come up with the original The Busines on the A330 with superior catering etc to compete (and QF kind of matched.. ish)... VA2 now dropping J fares on key routes etc... has QF bothered to drop theirs? Nope. Why? if that isn't a bit of arrogance then I am not sure what it is.

 

[dk4]

...This is why AC rules the skies over Canada with WestJet a distant second in that regard.

It's strange how Canada's aviation sector has mirrored aspects of Australia's over the last few decades. At the end of last century they had two relatively well matched domestic airlines Air Canada and Canadian Airlines. (Just like Australia had Qantas and Ansett.)

Then around the turn of the century, one of them, Canadian (| oneworld) got into financial trouble (just like in Australia, with Ansett)... But instead of being allowed to collapse completely (like Ansett did) Canadian and Air Canada merged, giving the new behemoth massive power.

And now, different paths, but similar outcomes - each country has a very dominant airline group, and a smaller secondary player.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

It's strange how Canada's aviation sector has mirrored aspects of Australia's over the last few decades. At the end of last century they had two relatively well matched domestic airlines Air Canada and Canadian Airlines. (Just like Australia had Qantas and Ansett.)

Then around the turn of the century, one of them, Canadian (| oneworld) got into financial trouble (just like in Australia, with Ansett)... But instead of being allowed to collapse completely (like Ansett did) Canadian and Air Canada merged, giving the new behemoth massive power.

And now, different paths, but similar outcomes - each country has a very dominant airline group, and a smaller secondary player.

One big difference between Canada and Australia though is Canadians can do cabotage to save on fares (both legal and illegally). So yeah, AC can charge a Premium between Toronto and Vancouver because they're the only one that operates within Canada, but there's nothing stopping me from hopping on a United flight from Toronto to Vancouver (connecting in say Chicago) or heaven forbid driving 150 km to Buffalo and doing the ol' Buffalo shuffle to Vancouver on AA/DL/UA. Contrast this with Australia, where the only real cabotage opportunity is NZ, and often they have more expensive fares anyway!

In case anyone is wondering on the whole cabotage situation, there's varying degrees of it you can do. The most legal is simply driving across the border to Buffalo or Detroit and catching a flight on a US airline back to a Canadian city. No rules are being broken here as you are allowed to enter the US for most reasons and at that points it's a simple US to Canada flight. Then there's booking a multi-city to the US coming back to Canada the same day. This is definitely a grey area since you could argue that you went from Toronto to Houston for a quick meeting before coming back up to Vancouver for another meeting. Then there are finding itineraries where you are literally being routed through the US from Canada to Canada, these are likely illegal and at a minimum would raise an eyebrow when crossing the US border at Toronto Airport.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Mr Bill]

Maybe you guys should start your own thread. Comments to date have no relevance to the original post. Thank heavens the ACCC have taken up the cause re QF poor customer service tactics.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Thank heavens the ACCC have taken up the cause re QF poor customer service tactics.

I could be mistaken here, but I don't think things like customer service are within the purview of the ACCC. After all, where in Australian consumer code does it say customers must wait less than 6 hours to get service from a company? When has the ACCC laid the hammer down on any company with unreasonably long hold times? Now if the company goes out of its way to make you secure your rights as a consumer or outright denies said rights, than yeah I could see ACCC stepping in.

But I think this begs a bigger question: how do we get QF to improve their customer service game? Some have suggested voting with your wallets, but that's not always possible for every route and I reckon given the overwhelming demand for QF flights right now is something that would barely move the needle on revenue or profits. Would protesting outside QF headquarters make a difference? Maybe. What about a class action from QFF who have been inconvenienced by this move. After all, an argument could be made that QF breached their contract with Platinum Ones by not providing the VIP service they claim to offer, and not honouring same day flight changes by keeping their elites on hold for hours on end.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Mr Bill]

I think they have the remit.......