Jetstar Perth taser incident

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes I think there is

CASA:

Failure to comply with any safety direction or instruction of a crew member

Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 - Regs 91.575 and 91.580

Up to 50 penalty units. Each penalty unit is currently $222 (up to $11,100). Infringement Notice penalty $1,110.

Yes, I know the rule is there, the question is whether the passenger will be charged under it? Did he fail to comply with a safety direction or instruction? I guess it will come down to why the passenger was asked to move, and why one crew member allegedly said the seating was ok, but another didn’t.

That’s separate to any charges over abusive behaviour, etc.

 

[justinbrett]

Interesting how the 2017 UA incident is interpreted differently to the 2023 JQ taser incident
Both were ordered to exit the aircraft, both resisted and in both cases law enforcement were involved. One eventually got an apology from the CEO after public pressure and also a confidential settlement, the other banned from flying in an aircraft at least until a court hearing.

Re police interactions: My car once got rammed by a NSW Police car. Boys in Blue very apologetic and exchange of information.

I think if UA man happened now in post-Covid America, the result would be much the same as the JQ incident, or possibly worse.

Two years of trying to enforce masks on planes has made a lasting impact.

 

[Quickstatus]

, and why one crew member allegedly said the seating was ok, but another didn’t.

With the limited video, my impression is that TaseredGuy became belligerent after sitting down and then only after being directed to change back to his original seat

Im at a loss to understand how moving to a different seat is a safety issue. Other forums have said it's because rescue can identify passengers in a crash. Yet others say it's a centre of gravity issue. But someone else also said it went against the overall JQ business model with seat allocation which has nothing to do with safety.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

With the limited video, my impression is that TaseredGuy became belligerent after sitting down and then only after being directed to change back to his original seat

Im at a loss to understand how moving to a different seat is a safety issue. Other forums have said it's because rescue can identify passengers in a crash. Yet others say it's a centre of gravity issue. But someone else also said it went against the overall JQ business model with seat allocation which has nothing to do with safety.

Weight and balance, yes. Identification in a crash? I’m not sure we’ve ever had a plane crash where the cabin and all the seats remained in tact and unmoved, but everybody died?

I am 100% behind the broadest interpretation of the ‘safety requirement’. If you can link a request or instruction no matter how tenuously with safety I’m ok with it.

But I read a report recently where a person laying down over the two empty adjacent seats was asked to sit up and only occupy the seat they had paid for? Dunno about that one!

 

[justinbrett]

With the limited video, my impression is that TaseredGuy became belligerent after sitting down and then only after being directed to change back to his original seat

Im at a loss to understand how moving to a different seat is a safety issue. Other forums have said it's because rescue can identify passengers in a crash. Yet others say it's a centre of gravity issue. But someone else also said it went against the overall JQ business model with seat allocation which has nothing to do with safety.

How did the FA know he was in the wrong seat?

That's the million dollar question.

My theory, that I stated before, is the other pax involved may not have been happy with the swap but didn't want to say no to his face.

I've never seen JQ check people are in the right seats prior to take off - and it looked like a pretty full flight.

JQ only started the "no swapping" announcement during Covid, which would have been for contact tracing. I guess they forgot to remove it?

 

[Quickstatus]

I am 100% behind the broadest interpretation of the ‘safety requirement’.

That can be problematic because it removes any requirement of reasonableness. The 2017 UA outcome came down on the side that Dao was unreasonably removed. Anything can then be construed to be a safety issue. A tyrannical cabin crew and security personnel would result.

 

[Quickstatus]

wrong seat?

Don't know, the video didn't (as usual) give the full narrative.

Whether he swopped or sat in someone else's seat before they got there and forced the other passenger to sit in his original seat, I don't know.

In any case there is nothing inherently unsafe with swopping seats whether by agreement or otherwise (assuming that it did not directly cause an altercation between the passengers). The only "safety" issue I can see is the belligerence and failure to follow cabin crew instructions. Were the cabin crew instructions reasonable?. Possibly a grey area if we are to believe that one CC said no problem to change seats and another CC (likely the CSM) said no. Like Dao and the 2017 UA incident, the intepretation of reasonableness may not be as black as white as we would like it to be.

 

[dajop]

In any case there is nothing inherently unsafe with swopping seats

Not on a full flight anyway and not swapping with an already occupied seat. On a lighter loaded flight I have heard announcements about remaining in original seat until after seatbelt signs are turned off, due to weight/balance issues, but that’s about swapping to empty seats

 

[justinbrett]

Don't know, the video didn't (as usual) give the full narrative.

Whether he swopped or sat in someone else's seat before they got there and forced the other passenger to sit in his original seat, I don't know.

In any case there is nothing inherently unsafe with swopping seats whether by agreement or otherwise (assuming that it did not directly cause an altercation between the passengers). The only "safety" issue I can see is the belligerence and failure to follow cabin crew instructions. Were the cabin crew instructions reasonable?. Possibly a grey area if we are to believe that one CC said no problem to change seats and another CC (likely the CSM) said no. Like Dao and the 2017 UA incident, the intepretation of reasonableness may not be as black as white as we would like it to be.

No I disagree with you there.

If the pax intimidated another pax into taking his seat, resulting in that pax complaining - that action is a warning sign that further altercations could occur during the flight. I think they are definitely in their right to ask him to move - and if I was the other pax - I'd expect them to.

That is an if, because we don't know what happened. But I don't think it would have been something that would come up randomly - they don't do spot checks.

For what it's worth, I did google the pax in question, and there is a Herald Sun article about a court appearance last year (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader...1/news-story/5b86b8d6566e9507b1ab8583e56de07f) it's behind a paywall but I saw enough to see his name on it. If he does have a criminal history, that would definitely influence the way the AFP handled the situation. Again that's an if.

 

[Quickstatus]

weight/balance issues

I've always wondered to what extent is CoG affected by one passenger moving to a different seat and is it significant enough to put the aircraft outside of the CoG envelope.

I agree swooping seats on full flight won't be significant. Maybe size of aircraft, duration of flight-fuel consumption, passenger distribution.

 

[Quickstatus]

because we don't know what happened.

Don't know what happened. The full story was not narrated. Can think of several permutations but I didn't see any passenger comments that he intimidated another passenger to give up their seat. My impression was he sat in someone's seat before that passenger got there.

He may well have history. His belligerence can be a sign of someone with little insight into his behaviour

 

[justinbrett]

Don't know what happened. The full story was not narrated. Can think of several permutations but I didn't see any passenger comments that he intimidated another passenger to give up their seat,

No, but that's the suspicious thing. We definitely don't have the full story - FAs don't just randomly ask pax to show boarding passes to enforce seat assignment.

I have literally never seen this happen in all my years of flying - it only happens when there's two pax that claim the same seat.

 

[Quickstatus]

it only happens when there's two pax that claim the same seat.

That's my intepretation. TaseredGuysat in someone's else allocated seat and when that someone arrived he got told/asked by TaseredGuy to swop.

Possibly he got the family pre boarding which gave him the opportunity to grab the seat he wanted before the other passenger.

 

[MARTINE]

Personally I think AU should have full ID checks for domestic flights.

You can't check into a hotel without ID.

Interesting isnt it
All over Europe we hand over our passports for staff to photocopy. Is that by law - I dont think its safety - certainly if someone does a runner they want ID but I never really understood why. I have never shown ID in an Australian hotel

 

[justinbrett]

I have never shown ID in an Australian hotel

We must use different hotels then.

I think it's more about the credit card (ie, they want photo ID to match the credit card). Thought it was a policy of all the major chains - perhaps I'm just used to overseas travel and offer it in advance.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That can be problematic because it removes any requirement of reasonableness. The 2017 UA outcome came down on the side that Dao was unreasonably removed. Anything can then be construed to be a safety issue. A tyrannical cabin crew and security personnel would result.

By ‘broadest interpretation’ of safety I mean things like if the crew don’t want people congregating by the galley, or no more than one person queueing by the WC near the flight deck. Or they want you to out your shoes on for take off and landing, or they want the window shades ‘up’ on the sunny side of the plane while it’s at the gate ‘in case there’s a fire’ (yes, true story in Australia).

I can understand the basis for all those ‘safety’ requests.

But there are other instructions which seem a little more stretched… like having to close shades during the day.

Now if in this case the guy intimidated another passenger who was rightfully due that seat… the instruction would be safety related.

 

[Guvner]

Personally I think AU should have full ID checks for domestic flights.

You can't check into a hotel without ID.

I checked in to a hotel in Melbourne this afternoon and was not asked for ID.
What problem would be solved by mandating “full ID” checks on domestic flights?

 

[Princess Fiona]

I have only briefly watched the very heavily edited film.
I can’t come to any conclusions or theories over what happened.
But I’m certain at the point the AFP are on the aircraft and telling me that I’m not flying, no matter what went down beforehand with the crew I’m pretty sure I’ll be getting off with aircraft with them.

 

[justinbrett]

I checked in to a hotel in Melbourne this afternoon and was not asked for ID.
What problem would be solved by mandating “full ID” checks on domestic flights?

To actually enforce a no fly list for starters.

What's the point in having them if you don't check ID?

 

[drron]

From the beginning the Taser guy has said he swapped seats with another man. Surely if it was an amicable swap and the other guy saw what happened wouldn’t he have come forward and backed up the story of the swap.
Sorry I really think he just sat in a seat that had already been allocated to someone else and they didn’t like it. Hence the questioning by the FA. And once the FA has confirmed what the passenger had to do he is committing an offence if he refuses.