Lower Frequent Flyer charges, review of International fare structure

[Mr_Orange]

The media release highlights Economy and Premium Economy as this is where customers will see the greatest differences.

What does this mean? The implication is that copay on J and F redemptions will reduce too, but just by a smaller amount, but nothing in the press release confirms this.

Sorry, RR, once again I know you are just a messenger here, but this is a bullcrap enhancement that does nothing to improve the FF programme in the areas where it really needs improving. Whilst, I'm sure plenty of member do redeem Y/Y+ flights, anybody who really understands the value of their points only redeems for J/F and it these more highly engaged members who are probably the most vocal.

 

[serfty]

I have not seen that table published by Qantas.

 

[JohnPhelan]

What does this mean? The implication is that copay on J and F redemptions will reduce too, but just by a smaller amount, but nothing in the press release confirms this.

Look at the table published earlier in the thread! It lists the copay amounts for all classes.

 

[wandering_fred]

Meanwhile QF has announced that the current fuel charges on QF flights between (SIN or HKG or NRT or DXB) and (ADL or PER) will remain at zero dollar level...

Oh wait. Actually you will have to wait since there are no QF planes on those routes

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[andye]

What does this mean? The implication is that copay on J and F redemptions will reduce too, but just by a smaller amount, but nothing in the press release confirms this.

Sorry, RR, once again I know you are just a messenger here, but this is a bullcrap enhancement that does nothing to improve the FF programme in the areas where it really needs improving. Whilst, I'm sure plenty of member do redeem Y/Y+ flights, anybody who really understands the value of their points only redeems for J/F and it these more highly engaged members who are probably the most vocal.

I'm not sure that the worldy-wise QFF users are the most vocal. The group who I think get most upset are those who don't fly very often, fly Qantas (regularly but not particularly frequently) , shop at WW and use a QF credit card exclusively so that one day they can use their points for a holiday they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. They then find out that their points are almost worthless for an economy international Y redemption.

In terms of business model, I suspect the regular fliers are more important but what should Qantas do?
The options would seem to be (a) not make as much money per reward flight (b) increase points requirements (c) reduce availability
It is quite possible that reducing copay significantly could make Qantas more attractive to redeem on than it is currently-this would presumably reduce availability from current levels

 

[Red Roo]

...stating the one way old fuel fine, but then saying the reduction for return!

The figures on the table are accurate, and the percentage reductions clearly reflect the changes at a high level.

 

[juddles]

The figures on the table are accurate, and the percentage reductions clearly reflect the changes at a high level.

Red Roo, I am probably one of the most devout Qantas-loving people on here. But please. You are not dealing with a mass of average-IQ customers on AFF. That sort of thing doesnt wash here - you would be better off making no comment (on the QF marketing ploy) than trying to convince anyone on here that the table is OK. It is so clearly obvious!!! The changes are quoted for one way flights, but the ¨savings¨are for the return. Doubling the change.

WE DON´T SWALLOW THAT. Please dont lose credibility supporting the ploy.

Frequent flyers get annoyed with such coughola.

 

[Red Roo]

Red Roo, I am probably one of the most devout Qantas-loving people on here. But please. You are not dealing with a mass of average-IQ customers on AFF. That sort of thing doesnt wash here - you would be better off making no comment (on the QF marketing ploy) than trying to convince anyone on here that the table is OK. It is so clearly obvious!!! The changes are quoted for one way flights, but the ¨savings¨are for the return. Doubling the change.

WE DON´T SWALLOW THAT. Please dont lose credibility supporting the ploy.

Frequent flyers get annoyed with such coughola.

Thanks for your ongoing support juddles.

However with all due respect, Qantas didn't post this table to AFF, nor was it intended as marketing material. The media release references the changes at a high level, and the table illustrates this for those in the industry.

 

[Supersonic Swinger]

And no changes for Europe. To me this just shows how little influence QF has in the relationship with EK.

If I recall rightly, EK's were much lower than QF's, with the JV they settled on a middle ground which was much higher in EK's case and QF's a reduction. It seems that these amended levels have been left unchanged.

A "fairer and simpler" way would have been to apply it across the network and roll into base fares.

To me, these fuel surcharge changes seem totally consistent with all the other 'simpler and fairer' changes.

 

[RooFlyer]

Originally Posted by RooFlyer
...stating the one way old fuel fine, but then saying the reduction for return!

The figures on the table are accurate, and the percentage reductions clearly reflect the changes at a high level.

Thanks Red Roo, but that's an odd response to the point I was making.

The point I was making (first noted by NM) was that the 'old' and 'new' fuel surcharges in columns 1 and 2 were for one way journeys. The third/fourth columns, showing $ reductions and % reductions are for return journeys. I don't think anyone has said that the figures are inaccurate or have reflected on what level they were at, so I don't know why you posted that.

(But it sorta reminds me of the Answers posted by Qantas after they took on board Questions submitted (by Ansett?? I think) to Lesley Grant, after one of the Qantas AFF lunches. I recall then a number of the "Answers" had little to do with the particular Question !)

A sincere compliment I can give your marketing division is that they are very good at presentation of otherwise unpalatable issues and generally making a $%*& sandwich for customers sound gourmet:

* Increase in profit (for the industry) expressed as a single, solitary dollar per passenger (sob), not % (16%) or, heaven forbid, $millions;

* Old/new figures presented as one way; but "savings" expressed as twice that by using return figures;

* Don't include some facts of great interest - such that fuel surcharges to Europe/Middle East ('Emirates routes') aren't changing at all!

* No link to a complete table (such as presented by brettmcg up-thread) so even the lazy media would be able to see the true story.


Their talent is wasted at Qantas; Joe Hockey should recruit them to sell the last budget.

 

[williamsf1]

And what about FF redemptions on partner airlines? Does the fuel surcharge paid by QFF members for award flight redemptions on partner airlines actually go to the airline inuring the fuel costs?

YQ and YR is not normally passed onto the other airline when issued on 081 stock

 

[opusman]

I wonder if Qantas is concerned about how cynical many of their most frequent flyers are and how much trust they have actually lost with their customer base. I know if I were running a loyalty scheme I would be.

 

[farstar]

If QANTAS have redemptions for Business at 188000 points and Approx $147 Syd-LAX return like Virgin ( with lots of availability most days even in may this year) I will be happy.

 

[docjames]

I wonder if Qantas is concerned about how cynical many of their most frequent flyers are and how much trust they have actually lost with their customer base. I know if I were running a loyalty scheme I would be.

Given the spin that continues, it would appear they either aren't aware or don't seem to be worried about it.

Neither of this options would strike me as a good thing.

 

[UP4014]

QANTAS is my favourite line to fly, I received the email and though great, is this a mea culpa that QF accepts it should reduce the fuel tax because it goes up but never down in spite of oil prices (why fuel is not part of the normal fare I don't know, and I don't want to hear "because everyone else does it")

But when reading the detail and with apologies to Paul Keating, this appears like all tip and no ice berg.


Matt

 

[NM]

YQ and YR is not normally passed onto the other airline when issued on 081 stock

That has always been my understanding, but I have no way to verify or any inside knowledge in the area. This would similarly imply that when a member of a partner FF program redeems an award flight on QF metal that QF does not receive any YQ/YR revenue for that redemption either.

So by way of comparison, an AAdvantage award redemption for 3 passengers in Y between East Coast of Australia and East Coast of USA, flying QF trans-Pacific, includes a total of US$351. That's US$117 each passenger or less than A$150 at current exchange rates. And a total of 225K miles (37.5K per person each way). Note I use this example as I have the numbers handy from a recent award booking.

The same redemption for a QF FF member 360K points (60K per person each way) plus A$2,619.90 or $873.30 per passenger if booked today, reducing to $2,289.90 or $763.30 per person after Jan 28th.

Now on the same day as those award flights, QF is selling a return fare (all inclusive) of $1,798 per person, which will remain the same after the changes take effect tomorrow. So the $873.30 in charges on the FF award ticket represent 48.6% of the paid fare. This will reduce to 42.5% of the same paid fare when the fuel surcharges are wrapped into the base fare for the same overall fare price.

Note these are as real an example as I can find as it represents a recent award booking I made for real people (my family). In my case, if I had to pay the extra ~$2000 in surcharges we would not be going on that family holiday. Even the reduction in surcharges of $330 would not have brought this holiday into the realm of affordability.

So these reductions are a start, and moving in the right direction, but certainly not going anywhere near far enough in my opinion.

 

[Limewood]

And more in SMH today about ACC investigating.

 

[Ansett]

I Myself, and I'm sure many many others, have been loyal to Qantas for a number of years and have worked as ambassadors for the QF brands, including what was once its primary business arm the airline and of late Qantas Loyalty through its QFF program, encouraging Friends family and colleagues to fly the Red Roo.

Since the advent of Simpler and Fairer, the removal of MASA the drop in earn and now this I no longer promote Qantas as airline of first choice and now look for and recommend the best price and schedule on quality airlines. Majority of the time that is NOT Qantas.

I suspect that at some point in the not too far distance that QF will see the impact of that change, of what was loyalty blindly pushing QF, as members become more and more disenchanted and lose even more trust and confidence in the fairness and value of the QFF program.

Qantas seems to forget that it is a very competitive market and that the market is only going to get even more competitive with the increase in Chinese airlines targeting the Kangaroo Hop passengers, or should that be grasshopper passengers, to London and Europe Via Asia.

Qantas stop scre@#^G over your passenger and loyal frequent flyers.

Rant Over

 

[UP4014]

I Myself, and I'm sure many many others, have been loyal to Qantas for a number of years and have worked as ambassadors for the QF brands, including what was once its primary business arm the airline and of late Qantas Loyalty through its QFF program, encouraging Friends family and colleagues to fly the Red Roo.

Since the advent of Simpler and Fairer, the removal of MASA the drop in earn and now this I no longer promote Qantas as airline of first choice and now look for and recommend the best price and schedule on quality airlines. Majority of the time that is NOT Qantas.

I suspect that at some point in the not too far distance that QF will see the impact of that change of what was loyal blindly pushing QF as members become more and more disenchanted and lose even more trust and confidence in the fairness and value of the QFF program.

Qantas seems to forget that it is a very competitive market and that the market is only going to get even more competitive with the increase in Chinese airlines targeting the Kangaroo Hop passengers, or should that be grasshopper passengers, to London and Europe Via Asia.

Qantas stop scre@#^G over your passenger and loyal frequent flyers.

Rant Over

yes, the QF scheme was something we all liked that QF did well.

Well, someone in management thought they'd better fix that and the spin since has been underwhelming.

Matt

 

[Supersonic Swinger]

I Myself, and I'm sure many many others, have been loyal to Qantas for a number of years and have worked as ambassadors for the QF brands, including what was once its primary business arm the airline and of late Qantas Loyalty through its QFF program, encouraging Friends family and colleagues to fly the Red Roo.

Since the advent of Simpler and Fairer, the removal of MASA the drop in earn and now this I no longer promote Qantas as airline of first choice and now look for and recommend the best price and schedule on quality airlines. Majority of the time that is NOT Qantas.

I suspect that at some point in the not too far distance that QF will see the impact of that change of what was loyal blindly pushing QF as members become more and more disenchanted and lose even more trust and confidence in the fairness and value of the QFF program.

Qantas seems to forget that it is a very competitive market and that the market is only going to get even more competitive with the increase in Chinese airlines targeting the Kangaroo Hop passengers, or should that be grasshopper passengers, to London and Europe Via Asia.

Qantas stop scre@#^G over your passenger and loyal frequent flyers.

Rant Over

I am exactly the same as you. I still enjoy having QF status and am happy that I've locked in Lifetime Silver until that is made 'Simpler and Fairer' TM.

But the rot really appears to have set in when it became QF Loyalty, a separate division of Qantas tasked with independently generating as much profit as they can. Their internal driver no longer seems to be primarily to push the airline along, but selling as many of the points to third parties as they possibly can (hello Acquire as the latest example), no doubt mining the data they get for as much profit as they can, and turning it into a shopping rewards rather than frequent flyer rewards program (they're now "points", not "frequent flyer points"). And if pesky members actually try to redeem their 'points', try to claw back up to 42% of a paid ticket price in fees (using NM's example above) to minimise any actual cost to them.

The cynicism about the program stems from the fact that it now is a shopping reward program, and the value of the 'points' is basically measurable and declining, but it's still trading on the mystique of "you'll be able to redeem for long haul first class for free very soon".