Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[drron]

A bit hard to stop doing things that nobody has yet decided you should not be doing.

 

[medhead]

In my working life (projects) there are two basic types of people, the doers and the reviewers. Those in the second category think their job in life is to offer commentary on the first and forever are telling us what the doers are doing wrong and "what they would do differently". Of course the reality is that these type of people rarely do much at all of any value, they are two busy in their role of criticising others. I think there are a few "reviewers" on this site!

I've reviewed you post and the errors were too great. You are clearly liable for 113000 SD.

 

[burmans]

A bit hard to stop doing things that nobody has yet decided you should not be doing.

Ah but these people have the retrospectiscope and somehow know in advance you shouldn't be doing it. Or at least they tell us they do, have yet to see any evidence that is in fact true.

 

[burmans]

I've reviewed you post and the errors were too great. You are clearly liable for 113000 SD.

Ah, don't you hate autocorrect!

 

[amaroo]

Interesting, from today's Age -

"US response to Iran in 1988 not so clear cut:
Boris Johnson speaks for us all in demanding Russia tell the truth about who shot down flight MH17 (''This is Putin's war and he bears responsibility'', Comment, 22/7). But he weakens his case by inaccurately comparing the initial Russian response to the Pentagon's eventual admission in 1988 that its forces were to blame when they shot down Iran Air flight 655.
The initial US response in 1988 was to try to blame the victims. The then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William Crowe, told the world that flight 655 was flying outside the civilian flight corridor, was emitting military transponder signals, had ignored radio warnings, was flying low and was descending on the USS Vincennes at a rapid 450 knots when the captain ordered that it be shot down. All these claims were false, even if Crowe believed them at the time. It was only two days later, under intense questioning from journalists, that the Pentagon admitted the evidence showed that flight 655 was in fact a routine scheduled flight, emitting civilian transponder signals, flying in its proper corridor, climbing to a 4000 metre altitude, at normal speed. The US sailors clearly got much wrong. Similarly, the Russian rebels clearly mistook MH17 for a military jet and seemed unaware that commercial airlines routinely fly 10 kilometres above their land.
The US military admitted its mistakes. But President Reagan never publicly apologised to the victims' families. The inquiry cleared the Vincennes commander, and he was later awarded the Legion of Merit. And US public opinion overwhelmingly blamed the victims. As UK Prime Minister David Cameron puts it, Russia is facing ''a defining moment'' in its history. The US offers both good and bad examples for it to follow.
Tim Colebatch, The Age's Washington correspondent, 1986-89, Hackett, ACT"

I remember all this BS....the yanks were just as disgraceful as this current lot!

IIRC The tosser commanding the US warship got a promotion.....pathetic!

 

[ozkid]

Easy enough to press "fire" and let loose a missile, it seems:

Turns Out It’s Pretty Easy to Shoot Down a Passenger Jet | Autopia | WIRED

 

[casanovawa]

Although two airlines went down it doesn't mean the cases are carbon copies... The Vincennes picked up an Iranian F14 transponder that was taking off at the same time as the airliner didn't it and that's why they were confused as to if it was a military plane that was coming in to attack them, the Yanks were in the Gulf to protect Kuwaiti tankers weren't they because the Iranian's were the aggressors and threatening them and attacking them and making the Straits of Hormuz dangerous...

From Wikipedia it seemed a US frigate had already been hit by a couple of exocet missiles fired by an Iraqi Mirage (nice work Iraq) so US sailors had lost their lives and ships had been hit so no wonder they were on edge... Another US frigate hit a mine in '88 so it was a pretty hot undeclared shooting war...

So hardly people just shooting off missiles with no clue exactly what they were doing.... Plus the russkie separatists are the aggressors themselves in this situation... I doubt the US then systematically tried to loot the bodies and destroy all the evidence... The russkie separatists I don't think felt they were about to be attacked by this airline, were panicked, did it in the heat of the moment etc, etc...

Yes an airliner went down, yes the US military said immediately after the fact things that were wrong as they were reported to them, I still don't think they are directly comparable... Just me though...

 

[Jack_OC]

Although two airlines went down it doesn't mean the cases are carbon copies... The Vincennes picked up an Iranian F14 transponder that was taking off at the same time as the airliner didn't it and that's why they were confused as to if it was a military plane that was coming in to attack them, the Yanks were in the Gulf to protect Kuwaiti tankers weren't they because the Iranian's were the aggressors and threatening them and attacking them and making the Straits of Hormuz dangerous...

From Wikipedia it seemed a US frigate had already been hit by a couple of exocet missiles fired by an Iraqi Mirage (nice work Iraq) so US sailors had lost their lives and ships had been hit so no wonder they were on edge... Another US frigate hit a mine in '88 so it was a pretty hot undeclared shooting war...

So hardly people just shooting off missiles with no clue exactly what they were doing.... Plus the russkie separatists are the aggressors themselves in this situation... I doubt the US then systematically tried to loot the bodies and destroy all the evidence... The russkie separatists I don't think felt they were about to be attacked by this airline, were panicked, did it in the heat of the moment etc, etc...

Yes an airliner went down, yes the US military said immediately after the fact things that were wrong as they were reported to them, I still don't think they are directly comparable... Just me though...

So basically what you're saying is, the IR incident happened in a war zone. I think you'll find the separatists in Eastern Ukraine would say exactly the same thing about MH17.

The point Colebatch is making is very valid IMHO - the Americans initially responded in the same way as the Russians did to MH17, and despite eventually accepting they did it, the Americans never said sorry to the innocent victims or took any action against the people responsible. In the past few days Abbott has described the MH17 incident as "murder" and demanded the perpetrators to be brought to justice. Sadly, we all know there would be no such rhetoric if the missile had been fired by an ally of Australia.

None of this changes the fact that what happened to MH17 is a disgrace, it's just a bit sad when people are only willing to condemn wrongs committed by people they don't like in the first place. Human nature I suppose.

 

[Ansett]

And it continues Rebels gloat and brag having just shot down 2 more jets in the same region as MH17. What is wrong with these people do they not value human life or have any respect or regrets of recent events.

Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets days after downing of MH17 | World news | theguardian.com


Sorry but these people are just animals in my opinion.

 

[JohnK]

It was the notion that far from it being quick, almost instantaneous, that passengers may have had terrifying last seconds or minutes of their lives.

Realisation of what was happening, and with sufficient time to 'clasp their children to their hearts' and 'say a final wordless goodbye'. Real suffering.

I think it was completely unnecessary.

Reality is people would have suffered. Some longer than others.

 

[dajop]

Again that really does not mean much, different aircraft and different altitudes, just look at how much variance LAX SYD has between QF, VA , DL and UL.

I still don't believe that the reason some carriers were not flying over Ukraine related to extra intelligence or being prudent in managing the risk - more that other factors (such as normal flight paths going nowhere near there) were at play in flight path selection. Some commentators would seem to suggest anyone not flying over there was prudent, irrespective of reasons, I mean no one has mentioned NZ, but I wouldn't be surprised if a so called expert somewhere blogs that they were actively avoiding Ukraine airspace too. I also believe particularly looking at some of the flight paths that BA has taken fairly recently that BA and AF took the routes they did after factoring in no fly area over Ukraine.

On FT, there's a link to a release from the European coughpit Association that alleges US, Canada, UK, France and Australia were privy to intelligence that flying at any altitude over the area could be dangerous, yet this was not shared with other countries. These are only allegations, but I would not be surprised.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

On FT, there's a link to a release from the European coughpit Association that alleges US, Canada, UK, France and Australia were privy to intelligence that flying at any altitude over the area could be dangerous, yet this was not shared with other countries. These are only allegations, but I would not be surprised.

If that report (the link in FT) is true, it throws up the question of why BA avoided the area but VS supposedly didn't.

It also throws up another issue... if airlines claim 'they didn't know any better'... they would still have seen at least two airlines avoid the area (BA and AF). Did the security and route planning sections of the other airlines pick up the phone and ask BA/AF 'why are you not flying there?'. (Who knows what the answer would have been, but it might have been a prudent question.)

 

[OATEK]

So basically what you're saying is, the IR incident happened in a war zone. I think you'll find the separatists in Eastern Ukraine would say exactly the same thing about MH17.

The point Colebatch is making is very valid IMHO - the Americans initially responded in the same way as the Russians did to MH17, and despite eventually accepting they did it, the Americans never said sorry to the innocent victims or took any action against the people responsible. In the past few days Abbott has described the MH17 incident as "murder" and demanded the perpetrators to be brought to justice. Sadly, we all know there would be no such rhetoric if the missile had been fired by an ally of Australia.

None of this changes the fact that what happened to MH17 is a disgrace, it's just a bit sad when people are only willing to condemn wrongs committed by people they don't like in the first place. Human nature I suppose.

There are parallels and differences between the downing of IR and MH planes. I think we all hope that the MH incident was in fact and accident, that is they did not intend to shoot down a passenger plane. Whether we will ever really know of course is a question for some time hence, perhaps even a year or two, if ever. I doubt that anyone has ever forgotten that the US shot down a passenger plane, or that the USSR did the same. What we hope is that the sparsity of these events, as horrific as they are, will mean we can continue to travel relatively safely. People make their own assessment of risk, hence some people determined to stay with MH, and others vowing not to fly with them, and no doubt many others on a continuum in between.

As with all such events there are differences, and they are worth noting - no two events like this are ever likely to be exactly the same, and all sorts of contributing factors for the IR incident are likely to be different from the MH loss.

I think that there was significant ill-will from the West towards Iran back at the time their plane was shot down, that does not exist in the latest event. This time round there is little ill-will towards MH, although some concerns expressed about whether anything they did or didn't do contributed to their plane being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again, I think it is unlikely we will know anything definitive for a year or two.

 

[dajop]

What is wrong with these people do they not value human life or have any respect or regrets of recent events.

Not wanting to defend their actions at all, particularly in relation to MH 17, but sometimes you have to look at a different perspective to understand motivations. A few months ago my partner's mother, who has relatives in that part of Ukraine was speaking to them and they earnestly believed that Russia was good for them and the US/EU was bad, so much so that the belief was that "west" was committing all sorts of atrocities. Really, who knows what sort of propaganda they are being fed, which only serves to fuel the fire. Overlay this with historical rivalries and what you have is people willing to kill to defend there cause , i.e. War.

It is truly tragic, gut wrenchingly so that MH 17 was caught up in this mess. Moreso that it personal for many, and it could have been any one of us in the flying community. But also spare a thought for the families of many innocent civilians that have lost their lives in other conflicts elsewhere in recent times. It is just too sad to even think about it.

 

[Ansett]

Hi Dajop

My lady is also of Russian extract and we have visited many times and indeed our daughter is currently in Russia as we speak.

We understand the cough that is put out by Russia America Europe and others about each other however in my opinion the recent events have been handled very poorly with looting of dead bodies as an example.

Respect for the dead should be high on any Human Beings feelings.

A total disregard of human life to me makes people no better than animals whether it be in these circumstances or in other regions such as Gazza, middle east and the atrocities that occur through out the world.

 

[turtlemichael]

Looting happens in all situations where opportunity arises - road accidents, civil breakdown, bushfires, cyclones etc. It is a human failing. Being common does not make it any more palatable but it is the reality.

 

[mannej]

Not precisely, but it was foreseeable.

Essentially, that is what the whole negligence argument will come down to. In reality, how foreseeable was it though?

 

[mannej]

If that report (the link in FT) is true, it throws up the question of why BA avoided the area but VS supposedly didn't.

It also throws up another issue... if airlines claim 'they didn't know any better'... they would still have seen at least two airlines avoid the area (BA and AF). Did the security and route planning sections of the other airlines pick up the phone and ask BA/AF 'why are you not flying there?'. (Who knows what the answer would have been, but it might have been a prudent question.)

Yet it has been seen that BA picks and chooses which areas of conflict that they are comfortable to fly around. Why are they flying to TLV currently?

 

[burmans]

If that report (the link in FT) is true, it throws up the question of why BA avoided the area but VS supposedly didn't.

It also throws up another issue... if airlines claim 'they didn't know any better'... they would still have seen at least two airlines avoid the area (BA and AF). Did the security and route planning sections of the other airlines pick up the phone and ask BA/AF 'why are you not flying there?'. (Who knows what the answer would have been, but it might have been a prudent question.)

Really inconsistent in your argument here, so its not OK to take advice from one party but OK to take advice from BA and AF? Why should they call BA and AF and not SQ/LM or Aeroflot? Why would they call any of them in preference to the relevant authorities for whom this is actually their job?

 

[drron]

Have been looking closely at flight paths.BA LHR-SIN-LHR had a flight path in 2013 which most of the time went over southern Crimea which early this year was declared a no fly zone so had to be changed.They could have gone north or south.Really doesn't look like that much difference in distance.They chose the southerly route.
AF CDG-SIN flightpath was similar to BA.But the further east you go in Europe the flight path trends more northerly over Ukraine so favouring missing Crimea.
QF DXB-LHR has always been south of Crimea and CX LHR-HKG has always been north of the Ukraine.
On some of the more out there conspiracy theories it is pointed out that SU flying Odessa to Moscow makes a big diversion around Ukraine.but again that is also because it needs to do that to avoid Crimean airspace as much as possible.Also well known that Kiev had several BUK batteries on the border with Crimea.
Also some suggesting that SU flying from Athens used to cross Ukraine but deviated south on the 17th.But of course it left after the MH17 shoot down.

Also remember that the 32000 restriction was introduced on 14/7 way after BA and AF changed their flightpaths.