Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

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Why is it disgusting? If you were a victim, wouldn't you want the wrong-doer put you back not only to the original position if it wasn't for their wrong-doing, but also further punished by way of exemplary damages if their wrong-doing was caused by their gross or deliberate negligence.

Some of the MH17 victims who left surviving (dependent) family, with debts/mortgages/loans that need to be serviced, will now face financial hardship and financial ruin. Who will pay for that? That's why compensation, well damages really, need to take into account that and ensure that the victim's survivors are put into the positions that are similar positions if it wasn't for the incident.

Funny this is the same guy who says the Asiana flight into SFO would only get the Montreal convention payout of $185000 but they could get more from Boeing.
Asiana crash NTSB hearing delayed by snow|Across America|chinadaily.com.cn

And I guess he gets the typical one third of the payout plus expenses.
Not justice in my mind.
 
The point is that if every single airline was flying over the region, maybe MH would have a valid excuse. But the fact that one or two others decided not to, MH should perhaps have turned their attention to those and asked the question 'why?'. Why are these airlines taking a different route to everyone else? Do they know something we don't?

Who knows, MH may have done just that. BA or AF might have said 'just because we are being cautious', or maybe they gave no valid reason. This may need to be answered by MH if they are to prove they were not negligent.

That 37 other airlines were flying there may mean all 37 airlines were negligent, not that all 37 were in the right. It is just MH that needs to answer because they are the ones faced with the liability because they were shot down.

The Montreal Convention is clear. MH must prove it was not negligent. Otherwise it is strictly liable. SQ, AI, LH all would be in the same position if it had been one of their aircraft.

Again, I say this... everyone so convinced that MH is NOT liable, you rob the families of an avenue of compensation.

The authorities also said the Syria flight path was safe that MH4 took two days after the accident. This time however MH appears to be the only intercontinental flight using that route. So that might shed some insight onto MH's risk assessment. It somewhat looks like they have none over and above what they want to accept.

Authorities authorise all sorts of things. There can be a 100km/H speed limit, but if it is pouring rain, even though they have authorised 100, individual drivers will make their own assessment and go slower if necessary. People are allowed to ride motorcycles without full leathers. But some rider go further and choose to enhance their safety.

There is nothing restricting MH (or any other airline) from erring on the side of caution and increasing safety margins.

Why are we banging on about BA? They err on the side of caution only when it suits them.
 
Why are we banging on about BA? They err on the side of caution only when it suits them.

because the courts will need to decide MH's actions against what was happening on the route over the Ukraine. It may be that the courts dismiss the evidence around BA and AF.
 
because the courts will need to decide MH's actions against what was happening on the route over the Ukraine. It may be that the courts dismiss the evidence around BA and AF.

But as I said the usual BA and AF flightpaths put them close to the Crimea which became a no fly zone earlier this year.And that is when BA and AF changed their flightpaths.
And it is 75 airlines that flew the MH corridor from 14/7 to 17/7.
 
But as I said the usual BA and AF flightpaths put them close to the Crimea which became a no fly zone earlier this year.And that is when BA and AF changed their flightpaths.
And it is 75 airlines that flew the MH corridor from 14/7 to 17/7.

Maybe BA was fortunate in that they had changed their flight paths a long time ago. What may need to be considered is the information available in the immediate hours before MH17 departed, including the shooting down of other aircraft in the area. If it was 75 airlines, then 75 airlines may have been found to be doing the wrong thing.

but then i keep coming back to MH4 over Syria. Does that say anything about risk management at MH?
 
You wrote gross and Deliberate negligence. Yes it is my opinion and I will express my opinion. Please feel free to address the gross and deliberate element, if you wish for me to reconsider my opinion.

See my original post below which I did write gross and deliberate but also find the key word there - I will bold it for simplicity - to work out what my opinion is. An australian court of law will not need to determine who is right or wrong here, who is negligent or not, they just assess what is more likely than not likely, that is the term 'balance of probabilities'.

Why is it disgusting? If you were a victim, wouldn't you want the wrong-doer put you back not only to the original position if it wasn't for their wrong-doing, but also further punished by way of exemplary damages if their wrong-doing was caused by their gross or deliberate negligence.

Some of the MH17 victims who left surviving (dependent) family, with debts/mortgages/loans that need to be serviced, will now face financial hardship and financial ruin. Who will pay for that? That's why compensation, well damages really, need to take into account that and ensure that the victim's survivors are put into the positions that are similar positions if it wasn't for the incident.
 
And on the same day that MH4 did that BA overflew Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan out of SIN.Both conflict zones.
 
but then i keep coming back to MH4 over Syria. Does that say anything about risk management at MH?

It may well. But contrary to reports that suggested MH4 was the only intercontinental flight over Syria, many other airlines are overflying some parts of Syria, including BA & EK.
 
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The most important thing is to make sure the relatives get their deserved compensations as quickly as possible. If the "right" people can be forced to pay within a reasonable time frame then it's ideal for all sides. If this is not the case then someone must be forced to pay the bill according to international laws.
Yes, apologies for including the lawyers in those who like to see justice. Incredibly presumptuous of me, and obviously incorrect.
 
because the courts will need to decide MH's actions against what was happening on the route over the Ukraine. It may be that the courts dismiss the evidence around BA and AF.

Yes it is up to the courts, however your position makes it sound like this case is black and white that MH are negligent and have failed their duty of care. Yet there are examples you provide (BA namely) that have holes in it.

I would like to think that any decision regarding a breach of MH's duty of care is based on fact of what information was available at the time as I don't think it is as foreseeable as some make it out.

That is the problem with these types of accidents - public opinion is swayed by the "experts" in the media who are just after their time in the spotlight.
 
AF was apparently avoiding Ukraine airspace. KL wasn't.
If AF knew something, don't you think they would have told the other part of the same company?
 
Yet it has been seen that BA picks and chooses which areas of conflict that they are comfortable to fly around. Why are they flying to TLV currently?

They were one of the few airlines who understood the FAA made a wrong decision on this matter.
The (unnecessary) ban was lifted soon after.
 
AF was apparently avoiding Ukraine airspace. KL wasn't.
If AF knew something, don't you think they would have told the other part of the same company?

According to FT posts people wouldn't be surprised if the French didn't share such info with the Dutch...
 
Yes it is up to the courts, however your position makes it sound like this case is black and white that MH are negligent and have failed their duty of care.

Because that is indeed the way the law is framed. That's the difference to the law that we are generally used to in Australia, where we accept someone is innocent until proven otherwise.

The very specific wording of the applicable law here operates in reverse. MH must prove it was not negligent. It is already assuming they are liable for tier 2 damages, unless they can prove otherwise. That might be very hard for MH to show.

So it is a much easier argument to make out from a passenger's point of view.

But - as always with these things - you're going to have two legal views. One acting for the airline, one acting for the passengers. It may well be that a court will accept 'we just followed what Eurocontrol said'. But that will still leave all the other questions for them to deal with.
 
Because that is indeed the way the law is framed. That's the difference to the law that we are generally used to in Australia, where we accept someone is innocent until proven otherwise.

The very specific wording of the applicable law here operates in reverse. MH must prove it was not negligent. It is already assuming they are liable for tier 2 damages, unless they can prove otherwise. That might be very hard for MH to show.

So it is a much easier argument to make out from a passenger's point of view.

But - as always with these things - you're going to have two legal views. One acting for the airline, one acting for the passengers. It may well be that a court will accept 'we just followed what Eurocontrol said'. But that will still leave all the other questions for them to deal with.

That's rubbish. you are outright assuming they are negligent. That has to be decided in court regardless of who has the burden of proof. That's the key point. The law does not assume they are negligent, it places the burden of proof on the airline, it is you to a court to decide that question.
 
That's rubbish. you are outright assuming they are negligent. That has to be decided in court regardless of who has the burden of proof. That's the key point. The law does not assume they are negligent, it places the burden of proof on the airline, it is you to a court to decide that question.


No - I am assuming they are liable (for damages), unless they can prove they're not negligent.
 
No - I am assuming they are liable (for damages), unless they can prove they're not negligent.

You are also assuming that any claim will

(a) Be claimed under the Montreal Convention and not under any (other) local law in a given jurisdiction
(b) The compensation MH must pay will exceed the standard Convention threshold.

MH is only strictly liable for compensation up to the stated threshold, which is payable irrespective of negligence.

And barring a class action suit, this would all be on a case by case basis, which can vary widely depending on the filing jurisdiction.

As medhead said, however, although MH has the onus of proving they were not negligent, that does not automatically mean they are negligent. Otherwise, it would be an extremely easy compensation case, wouldn't it?

In any case, MH would get most or all of this compo money from its insurers, wouldn't it? (Otherwise, it would likely have to bring its own action in turn against a relevant party or government in order to exact that compensation amount to which it may not have necessarily been prima facie liable for). I wouldn't be surprised if there was a legal strategy being developed as to who - either in addition to or alternatively to MH - should be sued (governments, air traffic controls, Boeing, etc.) in order to exact the highest amount of compensation for the passengers' relatives.
 
No - I am assuming they are liable (for damages), unless they can prove they're not negligent.

Which means you are assuming they are negligent. They simply are not automatically liable as you continue to claim. That is for a court to decide. It is not automatic.
 
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