Masks on QF International Flights

Saw this article in SMH about QF lifting mask mandate on certain international flights where the destination doesn't require masks to be worn. Will be interesting to see how this plays out and how many people keep wearing them, and how many people stop wearing them even on flights when they are meant to be required.

Qantas to lift mask requirement on some international flights

Qantas says it will soon allow passengers to travel without masks on some international flights, even though face coverings remain compulsory on all domestic services.

www.smh.com.au

 

[drron]

Isn’t that part of the point of wearing masks? If you are infected the mask can help prevent spread?

Lots of people do do a RAT even if no symptoms. Particularly if they have been a close contact.

So just wear a mask on the off chance you have covid. Boy we are getting desperate now.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So just wear a mask on the off chance you have covid. Boy we are getting desperate now.

in high density settings such as public transport and hospitals, wasn’t that the whole point? Together with social distancing and good hand hygiene.

 

[sudoer]

in high density settings such as public transport and hospitals, wasn’t that the whole point? Together with social distancing and good hand hygiene.

Yes, but mask wearing was primarily to prevent massive outbreaks in unvaccinated populations.

The adult population has now had ample opportunity to get 3 or 4 doses, if we don't draw the line here we will be wearing masks in perpetuity?

 

[drron]

in high density settings such as public transport and hospitals, wasn’t that the whole point? Together with social distancing and good hand hygiene.

Hospitals are very different to public transport. They are full of at risk people so hospitals and Aged care facilities do have a case for masks and social distancing.
Public transport is very different. A much smaller proportion of at risk people with at least some who are infected wearing masks or staying home. no where near the same situation.
And the removal of masks in Airports was made on the advice of the commonwealth medical team.
And on Australian aircraft we have HEPA filters most in Australia should be effective and certainly more effective than an N95 mask.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hospitals are very different to public transport. They are full of at risk people so hospitals and Aged care facilities do have a case for masks and social distancing.
Public transport is very different. A much smaller proportion of at risk people with at least some who are infected wearing masks or staying home. no where near the same situation.
And the removal of masks in Airports was made on the advice of the commonwealth medical team.
And on Australian aircraft we have HEPA filters most in Australia should be effective and certainly more effective than an N95 mask.

They are similar in that neither are ‘voluntary’ in terms of needing to be there or needing to use it. Quite different to going to a pub or night club.

QF would seem to disagree on HEPA effectiveness… until just a few days ago mask wearing + HEPA was too dangerous to be sitting opposite cabin crew at exit rows. Have they changed to a different filter in the last week?

 

[Lynda2475]

The continued paranoia from certain people on this thread is crazy. Masks are optional if you feel the need to wear one when you fly do so, let other people assess their own risk.

 

[drron]

They are similar in that neither are ‘voluntary’ in terms of needing to be there or needing to use it. Quite different to going to a pub or night club.

QF would seem to disagree on HEPA effectiveness… until just a few days ago mask wearing + HEPA was too dangerous to be sitting opposite cabin crew at exit rows. Have they changed to a different filter in the last week?

They are still not places that masks are necessary. QF I believe does not believe HEPA is inefficient. Some QF FAs though are paranoid re masks. I have related the time flying back from Tasmania that the FA delivering the snacks was literally yelling at pax to keep their masks on until she had passed their row. I would imagine you just saw another paranoid FA.

 

[offshore171]

The continued paranoia from certain people on this thread is crazy. Masks are optional if you feel the need to wear one when you fly do so, let other people assess their own risk.

Yes agreed. No one is stopping the mask enthusiasts from covering up. Allow people to make assessments of their own risk.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The continued paranoia from certain people on this thread is crazy. Masks are optional if you feel the need to wear one when you fly do so, let other people assess their own risk.

It’s not about the choice to wear a mask to protect yourself, it’s about someone with covid wearing a mask to help limit the spread to others. That can’t really be a ‘choice’.

They are still not places that masks are necessary. QF I believe does not believe HEPA is inefficient. Some QF FAs though are paranoid re masks. I have related the time flying back from Tasmania that the FA delivering the snacks was literally yelling at pax to keep their masks on until she had passed their row. I would imagine you just saw another paranoid FA.

Not a paranoid FA, Qantas’ own policy on blocking exit rows on all international flights until just a week or so ago.

 

[drron]

It’s not about the choice to wear a mask to protect yourself, it’s about someone with covid wearing a mask to help limit the spread to others. That can’t really be a ‘choice’.



Not a paranoid FA, Qantas’ own policy on blocking exit rows on all international flights until just a week or so ago.

So paranoid QF management them. wouldn't be surprised they are getting most everything wrong lately.
I did ask you some time ago where is the proof wearing a mask on a plane prevents infection. General advice such as the CDC won't be accepted as they have no reasonable studies to back that statement.
As I have said on a few occasions and posted the link many times there was a Danish study comparing wearing a mask with not wearing a mask on close contacts quarantined with a known covid case. The results were inconclusive but the best scenario for masks was that they may prevent 1-2% of infections. The reverse outcome was equally as likely.

And as I have pointed out there are people out there who don't like others wearing masks such as the hearing impaired.
Here is an old study from Hong Kong where people preferred to see a doctor who didn't wear a mask. the incidence in Hong Kong of mask wearing was high as they suffered a lot with the original SARs and the Swine flu.

Effect of facemasks on empathy and relational continuity: a randomised controlled trial in primary care - BMC Primary Care

Background There is limited evidence to support the use of facemasks in preventing infection for primary care professionals. Negative effects on communication has been suggested when the physician wears a facemask. As communication skills and doctor patient relationship are essential to primary...

bmcprimcare.biomedcentral.com

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So paranoid QF management them. wouldn't be surprised they are getting most everything wrong lately.
I did ask you some time ago where is the proof wearing a mask on a plane prevents infection. General advice such as the CDC won't be accepted as they have no reasonable studies to back that statement.
As I have said on a few occasions and posted the link many times there was a Danish study comparing wearing a mask with not wearing a mask on close contacts quarantined with a known covid case. The results were inconclusive but the best scenario for masks was that they may prevent 1-2% of infections. The reverse outcome was equally as likely.

And as I have pointed out there are people out there who don't like others wearing masks such as the hearing impaired.
Here is an old study from Hong Kong where people preferred to see a doctor who didn't wear a mask. the incidence in Hong Kong of mask wearing was high as they suffered a lot with the original SARs and the Swine flu.

Effect of facemasks on empathy and relational continuity: a randomised controlled trial in primary care - BMC Primary Care

Background There is limited evidence to support the use of facemasks in preventing infection for primary care professionals. Negative effects on communication has been suggested when the physician wears a facemask. As communication skills and doctor patient relationship are essential to primary...

bmcprimcare.biomedcentral.com

I quoted a post of yours earlier where you said masks do help to prevent infection.

1%-2% reduction on an international flight with 400 plus pax doesn’t seem too bad?

And it’s not just about being on the plane itself… it’s about the waiting in crowded gates and in the jet-bridge.

But if we take the scenario of someone on a holiday in London (this is a QFi thread, but could equally apply to a weekend away in Sydney)… you are out and about enjoying your holiday and the last couple of days you go out to a bar, a show, perhaps a busy museum, ride the tube, dine at a couple of restaurants. All higher density and potentially higher-risk environments. You then go out to the airport, wait in lounges, hop on a plane, knowing perhaps you might have been exposed.

But you choose not to wear a mask because… why? You are 100% certain you don’t have it? Or you don’t care whether you have it and could spread it?

 

[offshore171]

But you choose not to wear a mask because… why? You are 100% certain you don’t have it?

Enough of this madness. Continue to wear a mask if you are a mask enthusiast. No one is trying to stop you. But please don't hector others who use their personal agency to make different choices.

Or you don’t care whether you have it and could spread it?

"it". Like it's the only infectious disease to ever exist.

Even before covid arrived, there were other things you could spread - influenza, norovirus and so on. People make decisions to weigh up risks. As it should be.

 

[RichardMEL]

A couple of thoughts on the previous lot of comments.

1. The notion to stop testing/spreading panic is a bit of a throwback to the previous US president's notion that their case numbers would be lower if you tested less. To me that is a head in the sand kind of mentality. Having written that, my personal view is more that because this thing seems to mutate fairly easily (eg: a few months ago it was BA2 strain of Omicron that was doing the rounds, now is is BA4 and BA5, and well there may yet be more major strains to come of course) it is important to keep some sort of track of. Is that spreading paranoia and fear? I guess it depends on your perspective. If you're at higher risk, it will be something you will probably have a good reason to be interested in.. if you're not so much then it's probably not something too much to be worried about in general.

2. Proper wearing of masks/the right mask type - yes, cloth masks are now seen to be pretty poor compared to even surgical masks (despite being pushed heavily as the reusable/washable/eco friendly and cost effective solution) and of course an N95 is far more effective than a standard blue surgical mask. These are generally accepted now. I think though the general feeling is probably that just getting people to have some sort of covering has helped significantly. Yes, those who wear masks with their noses hanging out frustrate me endlessly but it's probably a case of "some is better than none" when it comes to the general community. Our society is such that you're never going to get everyone to do the absolutely proper and right thing so I reckon making the effort alone is seen as a reasonable outcome from the perspective of public health. As a member of the community i'd rather a 50-70% (as a general average of supposed mask effectiveness in reducing transmission) reduction in transmission, or even close to those, then none. I also know it just won't be a thing forever and most settings have had the mask requirements reduced or removed - and this continues.

3. It's generally accepted that when masks are removed in community settings, transmission has gone up. Now yes, in highly vaccinated communities the effects are hopefully fairly minimal, but there are always outliers and you will sadly get more people with serious outcomes as you relax restriction.. but you also can't keep them going endlessly. People become complacent and then just not bother at a certain point (which is why low levels of mask wearing on public transport in places where still required are seen). this is just, more or less, human nature in action.


I don't think it's for any of us to decide what is or isn't an appropriate level of concern about covid in others - because we all have individual situations - medical and personal - and different levels of risk aversion. While person X may feel person Y is ridiculously over cautious, person Y can think person X is being dangerously cavalier towards others - in terms of personal perspective both views may be valid. The conflict arises in settings like aircraft where choice becomes an issue. For example if I am a mask wearer but those around me are not, but I am concerned about my risk then in some ways the choice about my health is taken away from me (as viruses can enter the body via the eyes, tear ducts etc so a mask is only partially helpful there). OTOH, if I am uncomfortable and don't feel I should have to wear a mask for a 14 hour transpac flight and being forced to limits my choice... then there's that. Where is the line between the needs or wants of the one, and of the many? This probably sums up the entire "debate" over the past few years and there's no right answer simply because everyone has their own perspective and opinion. I obviously have my own personal views but I also do try and see the other perspectives and understand it. There's the idea of controlling the things we can control and try to not worry so much about those we can't... and I suppose that means those who are that worried about others on planes (or whatever setting) not wearing masks around them have the "control" of not getting into that setting.. which is a simplistic response, and ignores the whole thing about well perhaps you can't not be there - ie have to travel for whatever reasons.

Flying - specially international and from a place like Australia is one of those situations where there are very few alternatives that are reasonable (go on a ship to LA?) so it's just not quite as simple as "Well if you're worried about masks being worn, or not being worn, then just don't go" - and therein lies some of the issues some people are facing.


my 32 cents worth.

 

[RichardMEL]

Enough of this madness. Continue to wear a mask if you are a mask enthusiast. No one is trying to stop you. But please don't hector others who use their personal agency to make different choices.

With respect, and not wanting to create a massive flame war or anything I feel I should comment that the other side of this coin is that it could be said that this kind of view is just as much berating others for their different choices... and phrases like "mask enthusiast" to me is pretty negative. It would be a pretty rare person who actually LIKES wearing masks. I despise them myself. I also recognise though that some people have a need or at the very least feel they should wear them - for whatever reasons - if they do not wish to spread whatever virus they may have to others (as many asian cultures have done for a very long time on a regular basis as example) or for protection or even a sense of protection.

I do feel this whole thing is the base of the conflict and it comes down to, in my view, a lack of respect on the parts of some people - on either "side" of the issue for others - whatever the view.

If I am in a setting where masks are not required - I have no right to tell someone to wear one, or even feel upset about it.. by the same token if someone is choosing to wear one, for whatever reasons(that are none of my business) I also have no right to have a go at them for doing so (and there have been incidents, one which I have seen personally, where people wearing masks have been told to take them off, or they don't need them, or even abused.. and that's not cool. What's it bother anyone else if someone has a mask on (if there's an issue about lip reading or something, that's a special case obviously).

If I'm in a setting where masks are required, I think it's for me to follow those rules, whatever my personal feelings might be and I would expect to be called on it if I wasn't. However some people don't like that.

yes, this is a very divisive issue with some very polarised views of course. To me, that is where the madness lies.

 

[drron]

I quoted a post of yours earlier where you said masks do help to prevent infection.

1%-2% reduction on an international flight with 400 plus pax doesn’t seem too bad?

And it’s not just about being on the plane itself… it’s about the waiting in crowded gates and in the jet-bridge.

But if we take the scenario of someone on a holiday in London (this is a QFi thread, but could equally apply to a weekend away in Sydney)… you are out and about enjoying your holiday and the last couple of days you go out to a bar, a show, perhaps a busy museum, ride the tube, dine at a couple of restaurants. All higher density and potentially higher-risk environments. You then go out to the airport, wait in lounges, hop on a plane, knowing perhaps you might have been exposed.

But you choose not to wear a mask because… why? You are 100% certain you don’t have it? Or you don’t care whether you have it and could spread it?

I said masks will prevent transmission when worn by an infected person. If not infected wearing a mask is basically useless.
Most flights don't have a currently infected person so 1-2% of nothing is nothing.
And be damned if I am going to wear a mask all the time because I "might" be infected just because some people have covid phobia.
And at the moment 3 weeks after I had covid I would say it is extremely unlikely that I have covid. And for the week after I tested negative I wore a mask when out just in case.

 

[offshore171]

If I am in a setting where masks are not required - I have no right to tell someone to wear one, or even feel upset about it..

by the same token if someone is choosing to wear one, for whatever reasons(that are none of my business) I also have no right to have a go at them for doing so

I agree with both of those statements.

I say this as someone who always adhered to mask wearing where it was a requirement, but removed it where it was not, so coming from a fairly moderate perspective:

In the 2 years of COVID, I have not once seen someone berated for wearing a mask.

However I have on many times seen people rebuked for not wearing one.

Some of these have been the gentle reminders where people have genuinely forgot as they walked into a shop. No harm there.

However other cases have been completely unwarranted, such as masked people hectoring others unmasked outdoors walking the dog, doing exercise etc where was not a requirement. These ones were often very nasty attacks, which is why I'm a bit browned off about so-called "mask enthusiasts". These are the people I'm referring to.

(and there have been incidents, one which I have seen personally, where people wearing masks have been told to take them off,

Never saw this once. Closest I got to that was the scenario where you were meeting with someone in person (eg: tradesman, household visitor etc) and they say, "I'm ok without the mask if you are". Basically mutually agreed consent.

Most reasonable people accept that those wearing masks in completely benign environments (eg: at the park in a 30 knot gale) may have some underlying health issues and are taking their own additional precautions, and leave them well alone.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I said masks will prevent transmission when worn by an infected person. If not infected wearing a mask is basically useless.
Most flights don't have a currently infected person so 1-2% of nothing is nothing.
And be damned if I am going to wear a mask all the time because I "might" be infected just because some people have covid phobia.
And at the moment 3 weeks after I had covid I would say it is extremely unlikely that I have covid. And for the week after I tested negative I wore a mask when out just in case.

Again, the mask wearing is only in high density situations where people may have little choice than to be there.

Covid ‘phobia’ is not just about the symptoms, it’s also about not being able to visit loved ones seriously ill in hospital. Or missing a medical appointment. Or not being able to go to work.

 

[Lynda2475]

Again, the mask wearing is only in high density situations where people may have little choice than to be there.

With the exception of hospitals none of the places you have mentioned do people "have to" be there. You are wanting to force everyone to wear a mask whenever there are more than a handful of people indoors even though they are vaccinated and feeling well, just because you have an irrational fear thart someone might have covid.

The fear is yours, so you wear a mask and let others assess their own risk. Most Aussies did the right things and got double/tripple vaccinated to protect themselves and the community, people with confirmed covid stay home, no one owes you or anyone else more than that. We have lives to live.

 

[drron]

Again, the mask wearing is only in high density situations where people may have little choice than to be there.

Covid ‘phobia’ is not just about the symptoms, it’s also about not being able to visit loved ones seriously ill in hospital. Or missing a medical appointment. Or not being able to go to work.

But you are allowed to see loved ones now. Even throughout the pandemic from April 2020 those who had a dying relative in the ward I worked in were allowed to visit their relative. That was due to the excellent Nurse Unit Manager we had. Also we did not limit numbers to 1 relative or limit time spent.
And not one of our patients got covid in hospital.

As well we had young disabled patients at times and their parents were allowed to visit.

So it really didn't have to be denial of visits like that outside a covid ward

 

[MEL_Traveller]

With the exception of hospitals none of the places you have mentioned do people "have to" be there. You are wanting to force everyone to wear a mask whenever there are more than a handful of people indoors even though they are vaccinated and feeling well, just because you have an irrational fear thart someone might have covid.

The fear is yours, so you wear a mask and let others assess their own risk. Most Aussies did the right things and got double/tripple vaccinated to protect themselves and the community, people with confirmed covid stay home, no one owes you or anyone else more than that. We have lives to live.

You can live your life by wearing a mask on public transport or on a plane. Give covid to someone and they can’t for seven days. Two sides to the coin.

‘high density’ does not mean a handful of people. It refers to lots of people in forced close proximity to each other. Like public transport or a plane.