Midair collision between Helicopter and CRJ (AA5342) at Washington (DCA)

[RSD]

The pilot flying doesn't really need to have the CRJ in sight. In large part that's the job of the other pilot. If either pilot had the correct aircraft in sight, they wouldn't have done a beeline for it.

OK well that shifts the blame a little - even though as you have said the goal of investigations is to avoid blame - and it probably scuttles the DEI talk too.

 

[justinbrett]

OK well that shifts the blame a little - even though as you have said the goal of investigations is to avoid blame - and it probably scuttles the DEI talk too.

The lack of controllers on duty (which could, possibly, be blamed on FAA DEI recruiting policies) was absolutely a major factor.

 

[TomVexille]

The lack of controllers on duty (which could, possibly, be blamed on FAA DEI recruiting policies) was absolutely a major factor.

NYT reported that there were only 19 controllers on that night with the target being 31.

DEI should actually expand your hiring pool not limit it.

 

[justinbrett]

NYT reported that there were only 19 controllers on that night with the target being 31.

DEI should actually expand your hiring pool not limit it.

First, the 31 controllers isn't an on duty target, it's total number employed target. They only had 5 controllers on duty at time of the collision, which is about normal for a tower.

Second, the DEI is more complex than that and I explained in post #67. The training pipeline is small, but if you put people through it that just barely meet the standard, there will be an increase of controllers who will fail, either initial training or fail to get rated out in the field. But if you put through the best candidates there will be an increased chance they will succeed.

In Australia we struggle to get enough candidates who meet the standard to train, so yes for us we need to expand the pool - this is not so for the US who have law suits from white males rejected, apparently one of which got a 100% score on their exam.

I'm not saying DEI was the cause, that's why I said possibly, but there's enough for me to agree it needs to be looked at.

 

[Quickstatus]

The handoff of separation responsibility to a pilot is interesting

What is the FAA minimum vertical and horizontal separation between aircraft in a Class B airspace/ on approach?
Apparently at DCA heli pilots can request "visual separation" which, if allowed by ATC, hands off the responsibility of visual separation with no minimums to the heli pilots.

.....

we struggle to get enough candidates who meet the standard to train

What is the minimum requirements to enter a Diploma of Aviation
Once in possession of this Diploma are there futher training steps?

 

[markis10]

What is the minimum requirements to enter a Diploma of Aviation
Once in possession of this Diploma are there futher training steps?

Minimums for entry are easily found, basically Year 12 pass, 18 or older and Aus or Kiwi citizen.

The diploma basically is recognition of a competency in ATC basics, both theory and practice, as per MATS Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) - Airservices

Once you have done that training you go onto more training in the area you will be working in, this is called a rating.

While the basics seem well basic, reality is entry is very hard. At the time I entered there had been a hiring freeze for 3-5 years, 18000 applications were received for the 80 odd positions in the three courses to be held. During the training which was done at Henty House in Melbourne https://planning-schemes.app.planni...ittle-Collins-Street-Melbourne-April-2022.pdf (since converted to apartments), there was a mandatory 80% pass mark on all subjects or you were out. We lost 20% of the course during this phase. We then move to our final postings for further training and the issuance of an ATC licence, we lost another 40%.

 

[Quickstatus]

80 odd positions

That's worse than any Specialist medical colleges training numbers....
Last year the College of Surgeons received 947 applications and offered 315 advanced training positions.
The culling has already taken place at the entrance to university, then an entrance exam before consideration for advanced training.
Fail rates once in advanced training is very low.

 

[p--and--t]

Minimums for entry are easily found, basically Year 12 pass, 18 or older and Aus or Kiwi citizen.

The diploma basically is recognition of a competency in ATC basics, both theory and practice, as per MATS Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) - Airservices

Once you have done that training you go onto more training in the area you will be working in, this is called a rating.

While the basics seem well basic, reality is entry is very hard. At the time I entered there had been a hiring freeze for 3-5 years, 18000 applications were received for the 80 odd positions in the three courses to be held. During the training which was done at Henty House in Melbourne https://planning-schemes.app.planni...ittle-Collins-Street-Melbourne-April-2022.pdf (since converted to apartments), there was a mandatory 80% pass mark on all subjects or you were out. We lost 20% of the course during this phase. We then move to our final postings for further training and the issuance of an ATC licence, we lost another 40%.

Back when I was doing training for two different qualifications (neither related to aviation) we lost about 50% by the end of the first year. So those figures are not surprising to me and not what I would consider "abnormal".

 

[justinbrett]

The handoff of separation responsibility to a pilot is interesting

What is the FAA minimum vertical and horizontal separation between aircraft in a Class B airspace/ on approach?
Apparently at DCA heli pilots can request "visual separation" which, if allowed by ATC, hands off the responsibility of visual separation with no minimums to the heli pilots.

I didn't think a lot of that video. Three major errors with it - he was talking about Special VFR - that has nothing to do with this issue, completely irrelevant. He had the approach plate for RNAV 33 - aircraft was not on an RNAV approach. He said they collided at ~200FT. NTSB has already said it was ~325FT.

He's also wrong about lateral separation - 3 / 5 NM. That is radar separation. Those standards are based on 1NM lateral separation, the extra is to account for error in the radar position. If the tower is visually separating the "don't hit" standard also applies - it's not 1NM (certainly not 3/5 NM). Personally I liked to use the "aircraft are in different panes of glass" standard (and aren't converging).

I don't have a problem necessarily with assigning pilot separation. It was just poorly executed. ATC couldn't have separated that, only solution if not pilot separation was to hold the Blackhawk.

I also don't like the FAA phraseology for pilot separation. In Australia (MATS), it's much clearer, with a direct instruction to "maintain separation [with the CRJ]". The IFR aircraft also has to be given traffic and told another aircraft is maintaining separation with it:

10.8.1.4.1 IFR aircraft
When an aircraft is instructed to maintain own separation from an IFR aircraft, also issue traffic information to the IFR aircraft, including advice of assignment of responsibility for separation to other aircraft.

We also would be retransmitting the frequencies so both aircraft would hear all transmissions.

To me I still believe this is pilot error, but ATC absolutely set him up and, even worse, failed to save the day when given a second chance with a collision alert.

What is the minimum requirements to enter a Diploma of Aviation
Once in possession of this Diploma are there futher training steps?

ATC (like aircrew) is a highly skilled trade, not a profession. It does not require formal education.

I've (literally) seen doctors with PhDs fail the training and tradies with only year 10 schooling ace it. You either have it or you don't.

At the time I entered there had been a hiring freeze for 3-5 years, 18000 applications were received for the 80 odd positions

AsA would be dreaming for those numbers now.

 

[Quickstatus]

doctors with PhD

PhD is just a recognition of an extremely narrow set of skills and not of anything more general that would be transferable to other trades/professions
Most PhD thesis are never read again after its production. PhD candidates are often seen as a cheap substitute for a lab assistant

ATC couldn't have separated that, only solution if not pilot separation was to hold the Blackhawk.

They could have held the Blackhawk but didn't because at DCA (at least according to theYTuber), all ATC needed to do was to offload the separation duties to the pilots at the pilot's request. They had done this before. Maybe it was an easy way to reduce ATC workload by task delegation. It makes sense on one level, but the pilots cannot have the same situational awareness of the ATC.

To me I still believe this is pilot error, but ATC absolutely set him up and, even worse, failed to save the day when given a second chance with a collision alert.

Probably up the chain as well
Who approved the tracks?
US Congress made DCA busier by increasing slots last year.
FAA's oversight?

Question generally:
Was the CRJ in a turn to the left which may prevent the right seat pilot from seeing the Heli.

 

[justinbrett]

They could have held the Blackhawk but didn't because at DCA (at least according to theYTuber), all ATC needed to do was to offload the separation duties to the pilots at the pilot's request. They had done this before. Maybe it was an easy way to reduce ATC workload by task delegation. It makes sense on one level, but the pilots cannot have the same situational awareness of the ATC.

Well firstly, probably don't pay much attention to that particular YouTuber. I read his comments and they are scathing, and I agree.

Again, on the face of it I don't have a problem with assigning pilot separation here. It was executed poorly. There's a world where that would have been done differently, possibly with an initial restriction on the Blackhawk, with no loss of expedition and a perfectly safe outcome.

Pilot separation is often the best outcome for all, and you shouldn't be afraid to use it where appropriate. This terrible language about "offloading duties" is not helpful. I also think if the Blackhawk crew are wearing NVGs, they shouldn't be offering visual separation. Is that just so ingrained when reporting traffic in sight they immediately offer it? Don't think it's been confirmed they were actually wearing them though.

Probably up the chain as well
Who approved the tracks?
US Congress made DCA busier by increasing slots last year.
FAA's oversight?

You can have a track / procedure with conflict points. It was never meant to be procedurally separated, not saying it's a good procedure but it wasn't the primary cause.

Was the CRJ in a turn to the left which may prevent the right seat pilot from seeing the Heli.

They should have seen the Blackhawk on base (head to head). NTSB confirmed there was an audible traffic warning in the CRJ before the collision. Again, if CRJ was told the Blackhawk was maintaining separation with it, they might have been looking more closely.

 

[drron]

The original Law suit re being denied the opportunity to train as an ATC was filed first in 2013. Naturally it has re surfaced in the news. But I believe in 2013 there were about 3000 and now about 900-1000. Presumably some got jobs as the changes in the application in 2013 were abolished in 2018 though it is still advertised by the FAA. Others have moved on. The lead complainant now works with the FAA but not as an ATC.

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes

Complaints about the FAA’s hiring policies resurfaced after the American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Washington, DC.

www.aol.com

 

[moa999]

You can have a track / procedure with conflict points. It was never meant to be procedurally separated, not saying it's a good procedure but it wasn't the primary cause.

It doesn't appear to be as much of an issue with any of the other runways due to the distance from runway thresholds and thus height of any aircraft.

But using helo route/ track 4, whilst Runway 33 arrivals (or 15 departures) is in operation just seems crazy (in hindsight).

I also saw a YT vid that suggested based on the normal glideslope for the approach to R33 any aircraft would be at about 200ft at the middle of the river.
(Obviously lower than the NTSB stated 325 ft +- 25 for collision in this incident).

So if a helo was flying centre of the river rather than the eastern bank, collisions would be even more likely.

 

[RooFlyer]

Question generally:
Was the CRJ in a turn to the left which may prevent the right seat pilot from seeing the Heli.

One of the videos posted above seemed to show that the CRJ was almost lined up with the runway ( head on to where the video was being taken from) and the helo was approaching it at about 60 to 70° angle. If you look at the track of the respective aircraft wreckages in air, that would also indicate the helo was going right across the path of the CRJ.

if that’s the case, it’s hard to not think that the helo was at fault, but as JustinBrett indicated above, possibly set up by ATC or at least the procedures.

 

[justinbrett]

It doesn't appear to be as much of an issue with any of the other runways due to the distance from runway thresholds and thus height of any aircraft.

But using helo route/ track 4, whilst Runway 33 arrivals (or 15 departures) is in operation just seems crazy (in hindsight).

I also saw a YT vid that suggested based on the normal glideslope for the approach to R33 any aircraft would be at about 200ft at the middle of the river.
(Obviously lower than the NTSB stated 325 ft +- 25 for collision in this incident).

So if a helo was flying centre of the river rather than the eastern bank, collisions would be even more likely.

Yes but that's viewing it as a set and forget procedure. It is not.

There's supposed to be a dedicated helicopter controller. Easy enough to tell it to hold over a position until either the conflict is clear or separation is assured.

I used to control at Darwin and there's stacks of helicopters, many of which need to cross final or are causing other conflictions. There are tools to make it work.

 

[mjt57]

Most PhD thesis are never read again after its production. PhD candidates are often seen as a cheap substitute for a lab assistant

When I was getting surgery I commented on my doctor's pHD and quipped, do they call you "doctor doctor"? He said, that for him and his colleagues at least, having a PHD or having a title such as "Professor" was a way of boosting "street cred" (his words) with his peers overseas. Made sense, I guess. He could've stuck with being a plain "Mr" and still do very well in his specialty.

 

[TheRealTMA]

First, the 31 controllers isn't an on duty target, it's total number employed target. They only had 5 controllers on duty at time of the collision, which is about normal for a tower.

Second, the DEI is more complex than that and I explained in post #67. The training pipeline is small, but if you put people through it that just barely meet the standard, there will be an increase of controllers who will fail, either initial training or fail to get rated out in the field. But if you put through the best candidates there will be an increased chance they will succeed.

In Australia we struggle to get enough candidates who meet the standard to train, so yes for us we need to expand the pool - this is not so for the US who have law suits from white males rejected, apparently one of which got a 100% score on their exam.

I'm not saying DEI was the cause, that's why I said possibly, but there's enough for me to agree it needs to be looked at.

IMHO: This theme gets off track wrt the recent incident. Without going down the drain of American politics, where's the actual evidence that DEI hires are or would be less intellectually or otherwise capable candidates than a white male from NYC?

 

[justinbrett]

IMHO: This theme gets off track wrt the recent incident. Without going down the drain of American politics, where's the actual evidence that DEI hires are or would be less intellectually or otherwise capable candidates than a white male from NYC?

I explained this in post #67.

In short there's no difference in the individual, but if you're only taking the top 10% of white male applicants, but you're taking the top 60% of DEI applicants, even if all meet the standard, you're going to have a lot more people who barely meet the standard in the DEI group and you're going to have excellent candidates in the former.

Although aptitude is not a guarantee of success it's the best indicator we have, so when training positions are limited you want to take the best available.

A large percentage will fail training. If a lot of candidates just barely meet the standard, their chances of failing is significantly increased.

 

[jb747]

Back when I was doing training for two different qualifications (neither related to aviation) we lost about 50% by the end of the first year. So those figures are not surprising to me and not what I would consider "abnormal".

Sounds like the RAAF pilots' course. It averaged 50% failure rate. And then a few more would bite the dust on the operational conversions. At one point QF's 767 command training had something in the order of 70% missing out, though that wasn't the norm.

PhD is just a recognition of an extremely narrow set of skills and not of anything more general that would be transferable to other trades/professions
Most PhD thesis are never read again after its production. PhD candidates are often seen as a cheap substitute for a lab assistant

My father had a PhD. He was generally hard pressed to lace up his shoes. Not a practical person.

Question generally:

Was the CRJ in a turn to the left which may prevent the right seat pilot from seeing the Heli.

Who was flying the CRJ? If it was the FO, then he wouldn't have even been looking in the direction of the helicopter at all. 100% of his attention would have been on the runway. There would have been no view at all from the LHS. And if he was supporting, it still would have been 80%.

Again, on the face of it I don't have a problem with assigning pilot separation here.

At night? It's almost impossible to say who you're looking at, or even to judge the range.

Pilot separation is often the best outcome for all, and you shouldn't be afraid to use it where appropriate.

Only by day. At night it's not much better than frequency separation.

IMHO: This theme gets off track wrt the recent incident. Without going down the drain of American politics, where's the actual evidence that DEI hires are or would be less intellectually or otherwise capable candidates than a white male from NYC?

I'd be DEI hiring away from white males from NYC. The worst controllers that I ever had to deal with (NY area in general).

 

[justinbrett]

At night? It's almost impossible to say who you're looking at, or even to judge the range.

Only by day. At night it's not much better than frequency separation.

Well I said on the face of it.

I've controlled night circuits with IFR arrivals, and relied on the circuit aircraft sighting and maintaining sep with the IFR aircraft before turning base. Clearly in this case the traffic was given far too early, I would have given the Blackhawk a restriction to hold north, when the CRJ got closer it would have got to the point where they could have safely confirmed identification and passed behind. Assuming no NVGs in use - and the helicopter had a controller with capacity to monitor it.

But I'm speaking in general terms, I'd love to see what it actually looked at from the coughpit of the Blackhawk. It may be that the city lights of DCA and other inbound aircraft just made it unsuitable for pilot separation at night at such a low altitude.