Midair collision between Helicopter and CRJ (AA5342) at Washington (DCA)

[RSD]

The pilot flying doesn't really need to have the CRJ in sight. In large part that's the job of the other pilot. If either pilot had the correct aircraft in sight, they wouldn't have done a beeline for it.

OK well that shifts the blame a little - even though as you have said the goal of investigations is to avoid blame - and it probably scuttles the DEI talk too.

 

[justinbrett]

OK well that shifts the blame a little - even though as you have said the goal of investigations is to avoid blame - and it probably scuttles the DEI talk too.

The lack of controllers on duty (which could, possibly, be blamed on FAA DEI recruiting policies) was absolutely a major factor.

 

[TomVexille]

The lack of controllers on duty (which could, possibly, be blamed on FAA DEI recruiting policies) was absolutely a major factor.

NYT reported that there were only 19 controllers on that night with the target being 31.

DEI should actually expand your hiring pool not limit it.

 

[justinbrett]

NYT reported that there were only 19 controllers on that night with the target being 31.

DEI should actually expand your hiring pool not limit it.

First, the 31 controllers isn't an on duty target, it's total number employed target. They only had 5 controllers on duty at time of the collision, which is about normal for a tower.

Second, the DEI is more complex than that and I explained in post #67. The training pipeline is small, but if you put people through it that just barely meet the standard, there will be an increase of controllers who will fail, either initial training or fail to get rated out in the field. But if you put through the best candidates there will be an increased chance they will succeed.

In Australia we struggle to get enough candidates who meet the standard to train, so yes for us we need to expand the pool - this is not so for the US who have law suits from white males rejected, apparently one of which got a 100% score on their exam.

I'm not saying DEI was the cause, that's why I said possibly, but there's enough for me to agree it needs to be looked at.

 

[Quickstatus]

The handoff of separation responsibility to a pilot is interesting

What is the FAA minimum vertical and horizontal separation between aircraft in a Class B airspace/ on approach?
Apparently at DCA heli pilots can request "visual separation" which, if allowed by ATC, hands off the responsibility of visual separation with no minimums to the heli pilots.

.....

we struggle to get enough candidates who meet the standard to train

What is the minimum requirements to enter a Diploma of Aviation
Once in possession of this Diploma are there futher training steps?

 

[markis10]

What is the minimum requirements to enter a Diploma of Aviation
Once in possession of this Diploma are there futher training steps?

Minimums for entry are easily found, basically Year 12 pass, 18 or older and Aus or Kiwi citizen.

The diploma basically is recognition of a competency in ATC basics, both theory and practice, as per MATS Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) - Airservices

Once you have done that training you go onto more training in the area you will be working in, this is called a rating.

While the basics seem well basic, reality is entry is very hard. At the time I entered there had been a hiring freeze for 3-5 years, 18000 applications were received for the 80 odd positions in the three courses to be held. During the training which was done at Henty House in Melbourne https://planning-schemes.app.planni...ittle-Collins-Street-Melbourne-April-2022.pdf (since converted to apartments), there was a mandatory 80% pass mark on all subjects or you were out. We lost 20% of the course during this phase. We then move to our final postings for further training and the issuance of an ATC licence, we lost another 40%.

 

[Quickstatus]

80 odd positions

That's worse than any Specialist medical colleges training numbers....
Last year the College of Surgeons received 947 applications and offered 315 advanced training positions.
The culling has already taken place at the entrance to university, then an entrance exam before consideration for advanced training.
Fail rates once in advanced training is very low.

 

[p--and--t]

Minimums for entry are easily found, basically Year 12 pass, 18 or older and Aus or Kiwi citizen.

The diploma basically is recognition of a competency in ATC basics, both theory and practice, as per MATS Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) - Airservices

Once you have done that training you go onto more training in the area you will be working in, this is called a rating.

While the basics seem well basic, reality is entry is very hard. At the time I entered there had been a hiring freeze for 3-5 years, 18000 applications were received for the 80 odd positions in the three courses to be held. During the training which was done at Henty House in Melbourne https://planning-schemes.app.planni...ittle-Collins-Street-Melbourne-April-2022.pdf (since converted to apartments), there was a mandatory 80% pass mark on all subjects or you were out. We lost 20% of the course during this phase. We then move to our final postings for further training and the issuance of an ATC licence, we lost another 40%.

Back when I was doing training for two different qualifications (neither related to aviation) we lost about 50% by the end of the first year. So those figures are not surprising to me and not what I would consider "abnormal".

 

[justinbrett]

The handoff of separation responsibility to a pilot is interesting

What is the FAA minimum vertical and horizontal separation between aircraft in a Class B airspace/ on approach?
Apparently at DCA heli pilots can request "visual separation" which, if allowed by ATC, hands off the responsibility of visual separation with no minimums to the heli pilots.

I didn't think a lot of that video. Three major errors with it - he was talking about Special VFR - that has nothing to do with this issue, completely irrelevant. He had the approach plate for RNAV 33 - aircraft was not on an RNAV approach. He said they collided at ~200FT. NTSB has already said it was ~325FT.

He's also wrong about lateral separation - 3 / 5 NM. That is radar separation. Those standards are based on 1NM lateral separation, the extra is to account for error in the radar position. If the tower is visually separating the "don't hit" standard also applies - it's not 1NM (certainly not 3/5 NM). Personally I liked to use the "aircraft are in different panes of glass" standard (and aren't converging).

I don't have a problem necessarily with assigning pilot separation. It was just poorly executed. ATC couldn't have separated that, only solution if not pilot separation was to hold the Blackhawk.

I also don't like the FAA phraseology for pilot separation. In Australia (MATS), it's much clearer, with a direct instruction to "maintain separation [with the CRJ]". The IFR aircraft also has to be given traffic and told another aircraft is maintaining separation with it:

10.8.1.4.1 IFR aircraft
When an aircraft is instructed to maintain own separation from an IFR aircraft, also issue traffic information to the IFR aircraft, including advice of assignment of responsibility for separation to other aircraft.

We also would be retransmitting the frequencies so both aircraft would hear all transmissions.

To me I still believe this is pilot error, but ATC absolutely set him up and, even worse, failed to save the day when given a second chance with a collision alert.

What is the minimum requirements to enter a Diploma of Aviation
Once in possession of this Diploma are there futher training steps?

ATC (like aircrew) is a highly skilled trade, not a profession. It does not require formal education.

I've (literally) seen doctors with PhDs fail the training and tradies with only year 10 schooling ace it. You either have it or you don't.

At the time I entered there had been a hiring freeze for 3-5 years, 18000 applications were received for the 80 odd positions

AsA would be dreaming for those numbers now.

 

[Quickstatus]

doctors with PhD

PhD is just a recognition of an extremely narrow set of skills and not of anything more general that would be transferable to other trades/professions
Most PhD thesis are never read again after its production. PhD candidates are often seen as a cheap substitute for a lab assistant

ATC couldn't have separated that, only solution if not pilot separation was to hold the Blackhawk.

They could have held the Blackhawk but didn't because at DCA (at least according to theYTuber), all ATC needed to do was to offload the separation duties to the pilots at the pilot's request. They had done this before. Maybe it was an easy way to reduce ATC workload by task delegation. It makes sense on one level, but the pilots cannot have the same situational awareness of the ATC.

To me I still believe this is pilot error, but ATC absolutely set him up and, even worse, failed to save the day when given a second chance with a collision alert.

Probably up the chain as well
Who approved the tracks?
US Congress made DCA busier by increasing slots last year.
FAA's oversight?

Question generally:
Was the CRJ in a turn to the left which may prevent the right seat pilot from seeing the Heli.