New Amex redemption rates for SQ/EK; adding transfers to QR/HA

[kangarooflyer88]

oneworld is already bookable through QFF and Asia Miles and J award availability on most routes to/from Australia is terrible, even for CX/MH/BA. QR seem to require an extortionate amount of miles in LATAM J...154,000 one way to SCL!

You are correct that one could use QFF or Asia Miles to book OW flights, what I think Avios brings to the table, is the ability to book award flights which ordinarily would be expensive using those currencies. Some examples which come to mind include:

• SYD <> LDH for 6,000 Avios in Y
• ADL <> MEL for 6,000 Avios in Y, 12,500 in J
• SYD <> HBA for 6,000 Avios in Y, 12,500 in J
• BNE <> CNS for 9,000 Avios in Y, 16,500 in J
• BNE <> MEL for 9,000 Avios in Y, 16,500 in J
• MEL <> OOL for 9,000 Avios in Y, 16,500 in J
• ADL <> CNS for 11,000 Avios in Y or 22,000 in J
• PER <> MEL for 11,000 Avios in Y or 22,000 in J
• MEL <> AKL for 11,000 Avios in Y or 22,000 in J

I can go on and on with Australia domestic and trans-tas options but I think you can see there are a number of sweet spots on the chart there.

Flying to Singapore, which most people seem to think is an important hub for us for some reason, also yields some good sweet spots. If you were to fly British Airways to SIN that would be as low as 13,000 Avios for economy or 50,000 Avios for business with an off-peak booking (with it being 20,000 for economy and 60,000 for business during peak travel periods). If booking Qantas you would use the partner award chart (which doesn't have a notion of on vs off peak), which is 20,750 for economy or 62,000 for business.

One other item I hear very very few people talk about in terms of Avios is the possibility of using Avios to upgrade flights to business. Essentially how it works is you place the upgrade to a higher cabin (i.e. premium economy or business) at the time of booking your cash fare with the upgrade simply being the point differential between the cabin you booked into using cash versus the cabin you want to book into. And unlike Qantas, the upgrade confirms right away, there is no upgrade lottery or pacing about the gate wondering if your upgrade cleared. And since you booked it from a cash fare, you'll still earn your base status credits for the flight too!

Again, and I must stress, Avios isn't yet another OnerWorld frequent flyer program. There are benefits to be had if you are willing to do your homework in the area. And we haven't even got into digging into Hawaiian who has a number of interesting partners you can book awards into including Korean Air, Japan Air, JetBlue, Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic. I mean spending 60,000 Hawaiian miles to fly from Australia to Japan in business one-way isn't a bad deal, is it?

-RooFlyer88

 

[SOPOOR]

I know im going to cop flack for this comment for this unpopular opinion,
But here it goes

I think devaluation is just wrong and should be illegal

Just because they want to make more money,
The airline/credit card company has already made its profit from the original purchase by the consumer, you cant have your cake and eat it

A typical example is if you were given a free burger voucher. You will.always ben entitled to the burger
Not half the burger in 1 years time because they decided to devalue

 

[Human]

I know im going to cop flack for this comment for this unpopular opinion,
But here it goes

I think devaluation is just wrong and should be illegal

Just because they want to make more money,
The airline/credit card company has already made its profit from the original purchase by the consumer, you cant have your cake and eat it

A typical example is if you were given a free burger voucher. You will.always ben entitled to the burger
Not half the burger in 1 years time because they decided to devalue

Well, you don't deserve "to cop flak" for that opinion; even though I'm not sure I agree with it I can see your point.

I can think of the following counter-arguments:

• Even burger vouchers have expiry dates. You will not "always" be entitled to the burger.
• Companies are in the business of making money -- if they need to change things to ensure their continuing viability, then so be it. To use your example again (sort of), I can't walk into my local burger store and complain that their burger costs $10 because "last year it was only $8". It's up to the burger store to set the price and it's absolutely reasonable that sometimes prices change.
• Devaluation may mean that Amex is better able to offer customers value in some other way. When I signed up to AmEx there was no $400 dining credit, for example (or ability to transfer to Avios, for that matter).
• Call me a "small government" guy if you want, but in a free market society it should, as often as possible, be market forces, not governments, which drive companies' decisions. In other words if customers don't like it it should be the customers who drive Amex's decision in the form of them taking their business elsewhere. This is much more efficient and much less problematic than getting governments to make market decisions on our behalf (yes, I accept that sometimes government regulation is necessary -- but just not in this case!).

Amex is giving several months' notice of the devaluation, they're giving something back in return (in the form of transfers to Qatar and Hawaiian), and if we still don't like it we can exercise our right as consumers and cancel. That's exactly the way that things should be.

 

[am0985]

You are correct that one could use QFF or Asia Miles to book OW flights, what I think Avios brings to the table, is the ability to book award flights which ordinarily would be expensive using those currencies. Some examples which come to mind include:

• SYD <> LDH for 6,000 Avios in Y
• ADL <> MEL for 6,000 Avios in Y, 12,500 in J
• SYD <> HBA for 6,000 Avios in Y, 12,500 in J
• BNE <> CNS for 9,000 Avios in Y, 16,500 in J
• BNE <> MEL for 9,000 Avios in Y, 16,500 in J
• MEL <> OOL for 9,000 Avios in Y, 16,500 in J
• ADL <> CNS for 11,000 Avios in Y or 22,000 in J
• PER <> MEL for 11,000 Avios in Y or 22,000 in J
• MEL <> AKL for 11,000 Avios in Y or 22,000 in J

I can go on and on with Australia domestic and trans-tas options but I think you can see there are a number of sweet spots on the chart there.

Flying to Singapore, which most people seem to think is an important hub for us for some reason, also yields some good sweet spots. If you were to fly British Airways to SIN that would be as low as 13,000 Avios for economy or 50,000 Avios for business with an off-peak booking (with it being 20,000 for economy and 60,000 for business during peak travel periods). If booking Qantas you would use the partner award chart (which doesn't have a notion of on vs off peak), which is 20,750 for economy or 62,000 for business.

One other item I hear very very few people talk about in terms of Avios is the possibility of using Avios to upgrade flights to business. Essentially how it works is you place the upgrade to a higher cabin (i.e. premium economy or business) at the time of booking your cash fare with the upgrade simply being the point differential between the cabin you booked into using cash versus the cabin you want to book into. And unlike Qantas, the upgrade confirms right away, there is no upgrade lottery or pacing about the gate wondering if your upgrade cleared. And since you booked it from a cash fare, you'll still earn your base status credits for the flight too!

Again, and I must stress, Avios isn't yet another OnerWorld frequent flyer program. There are benefits to be had if you are willing to do your homework in the area. And we haven't even got into digging into Hawaiian who has a number of interesting partners you can book awards into including Korean Air, Japan Air, JetBlue, Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic. I mean spending 60,000 Hawaiian miles to fly from Australia to Japan in business one-way isn't a bad deal, is it?

-RooFlyer88

Thanks for this comprehensive reply!

I guess my main interest is long haul J but 22,500 Avios for the few times I might want to travel to Perth is quite tempting.

And although I never would redeem for long haul Y usually, 13k points to SIN in a respectable BA Y sounds like a steal to be fair…though would need to see what carrier charges were here too!

I’ve seen a lot of talk about Hawaiian, do people know if their award availability is actually good?

Edit: just looked at SYD - SIN BA16 for an off peak time (early March 2024) and it’s 25k Avios in Y and 80k in J? Have they devalued recently?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Thanks for this comprehensive reply!

I guess my main interest is long haul J but 22,500 Avios for the few times I might want to travel to Perth is quite tempting.

Where I could see this being quite lucrative are those couple of long haul domestic flights like QF10 between PER and MEL which depart from the international terminal and feature international catering standards, but are simply a domestic route. This could also be particularly beneficial even in coach if you have OneWorld Emerald / QFF Platinum as you could enjoy the QF F lounge before your domestic flight.

And although I never would redeem for long haul Y usually, 13k points to SIN in a respectable BA Y sounds like a steal to be fair…though would need to see what carrier charges were here too!

This is also where you want to do some homework to see what Avios programs pass on carrier surcharges and which ones eat it up for you. Remember, you can move those Avios points between the 4 programs freely.

I’ve seen a lot of talk about Hawaiian, do people know if their award availability is actually good?

Award availability in theory should be similar to what you see on their partners (i.e. what a QFF member sees for JL). What is unusual though is you need to call in all of these partner awards, with only Hawaiian awards being available to book online.

Edit: just looked at SYD - SIN BA16 for an off peak time (early March 2024) and it’s 25k Avios in Y and 80k in J? Have they devalued recently?

Ahh yes, the price you are being quoted is the reward flight saver (RFS) price which essentially uses Avios to pay off some or all of the carrier surcharge. For that flight I am seeing 80,000 Avios + $183.61 CAD for the flight using RFS. The "base" award redemption of 50,000 Avios is available albeit you'll pay a hefty $515.05 CAD more in carrier surcharge. Whether 30,000 Avios is worth saving $515 CAD I'll leave to your own judgement.

-RooFlyer88

 

[albyd]

I know im going to cop flack for this comment for this unpopular opinion,
But here it goes

I think devaluation is just wrong and should be illegal

Just because they want to make more money,
The airline/credit card company has already made its profit from the original purchase by the consumer, you cant have your cake and eat it

A typical example is if you were given a free burger voucher. You will.always ben entitled to the burger
Not half the burger in 1 years time because they decided to devalue

I think @SOPOOR has a point. Anything that came before the deval date should stay at the transfer rate which applied when the money was spent. Anything that happens after is treated differently. I seem to recall Westpac had done that in the past and even Amex if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, this adds complexity, but I don't think this is unique for instance in taxation, we have pre-CGT (1983) assets and post-CGT assets - different taxation regimes apply depending on when assets are bought. I'm sure there are other examples - this is the first that comes to mind.

I agree with @Human as well as they give some good examples (like the "free" burger voucher isn't available indefinitely) but I think otherwise retrospectively devaluing points earned under a different "regime" is simple, but it's effectively "stealing". I know the airlines can and will devalue over time, it is what it is. You need to use your points, banking them leaves them at risk of "inflation" much like hiding your money under the mattress.

 

[GrahamBRI]

Yes, this adds complexity

Definitely complex arguments being tabled here, but we can also simplify the change.......
- Singapore Airlines no longer wants to accept our Amex Cash (aka points) so they have priced themselves out of the market
- Hawaiian and Qatar have said, yes, we are in and willing to accept your Amex cask (aka points)
- Amex has offset the loss of two of their previous partners with two new ones. I think this is Amex acting appropriately to retain value in our points accounts.
- I am assuming Singapore Air is looking to increase its reward seats for its direct earn customers by its action, so possibly a good move my them to reward their more loyal customers.
These are the same swings and roundabouts we have lived with for the last 30 odd years of this points game....... but plenty of value still to be had! I encourage you to keep playing the points game.

 

[ikg]

Does this effect Qantas

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Does this effect Qantas?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

- Amex has offset the loss of two of their previous partners with two new ones. I think this is Amex acting appropriately to retain value in our points accounts.

Actually 5 new partners: British Airways Avios, Qatar Avios, Iberia Avios, Aer Lingus Avios and the aforementioned Hawaiian. Talk about choice!

These are the same swings and roundabouts we have lived with for the last 30 odd years of this points game....... but plenty of value still to be had! I encourage you to keep playing the points game.

Yes if you've played the points game long enough the one thing you can count are is changes. And some changes in industry it's difficult to say whether it is a net loss or gain. For instance, when Qantas introduced points + play, some could argue that this represents a devaluation as your QF points were tied to a specific value amount rather than a route. However, on the other hand, those who held heaps of points but could never manage to find classic award availability for their route at a time that makes sense for them now have access to virtually any flight (albeit at a price). When Air Canada moved from fixed regional award charts to a mixture of distance based partner awards and dynamic pricing, I heard the exact same thing on forums like FlyerTalk, "huge devaluation. Now we'll end up spending a million points to fly to Santa Banana in business". Well the dust has now settled on the new program and there were clearly new spots open such as the ability to travel round the world in business class for 220,000 Aeroplan points, something which in the old program was not possible.

In terms of this specific devaluation, if you want to call it that, we'll have to see what happens here. Certainly this doesn't preclude AmEx from offering 50% transfer bonuses to Singapore in the future. It also doesn't preclude American Express from adding another Star Alliance program in the future (i.e. Air Canada Aeroplan) as the CEO of Aeroplan hinted at recently. Indeed the USA and Canadian arms of AmEx already have Aeroplan as a transfer partner (ask me how I know!).

Does this effect Qantas

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Does this effect Qantas?

Indirectly. My understanding is QFF transfer rates are unaffected. However, the addition of Qatar means you now have other options for booking QF awards using points (which may be more favourable than using QFF points).

 

[sydney slug]

Not good at all.

In my experience Qatar miles were next to impossible to redeem for any premium flights.

Does even VA have any redemption availability in J and on any of its partners?

I've been an Amex member for 17 consecutive years. It seems like it's time to pull the pin.

I managed two J SYD IST with Etihad via velocity for April 24, but it was a slog….

 

[yoyo]

I have a redemption on Qatar J using velocity points for this October. PHL-DOH-MEL. I think it was about $800 in fees though so very pricey.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

One other item I thought I'd bring into the discussion as I think it's relevant for the addition of Qatar is to point out that like Qantas, British Airways also offers a distance based OneWorld award (per Prince of Travel):

	Avios required for...
Miles in your journey	Economy	Premium economy	Business	First
0–1,500	30,000	45,000	60,000	90,000
1,501–4,000	35,000	52,500	70,000	105,000
4,001–9,000	60,000	90,000	120,000	180,000
9,001–10,000	70,000	105,000	140,000	210,000
10,001–14,000	90,000	135,000	180,000	270,000
14,001–20,000	100,000	150,000	200,000	300,000
20,001–25,000	120,000	180,000	240,000	360,000
25,001–35,000	140,000	210,000	280,000	420,000
35,001–50,000	160,000	240,000	320,000	480,000

I don't know how this fares to Qantas but certainly something to consider.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Duggo]

I managed two J SYD IST with Etihad via velocity for April 24, but it was a slog….

Points required ? I have been searching almost daily without much luck atm, thinking of waiting till 2025 the way its going

 

[Human]

Points required ? I have been searching almost daily without much luck atm, thinking of waiting till 2025 the way its going

Velocity releases its partner reward seats at 12am AEST, 330 days before the flight. I've had great success being up then; more often than not I've been able to get the seats I want (x2), though sometimes they've already gone to Qatar's Privilege Club members (who have access 361 days before the flight), and sometimes you have to be willing to be a little flexible (eg. flying into or out of an adjacent city rather than the exact place you want).

It's 139,000 points per person to Europe; Istanbul is a little less (121,000 points if I recall correctly).

 

[777 300]

View attachment 335238

 

[777 300]

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

That's an unlike for sure. Got the same email. Hmmmm, there goes amex warehousing and a likely cancellation for me.

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

A huge sad face

Beginning of the end of the points game it would seem

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Amex are dramatically devaluing the MR transfer rates to Silverkris from 3/10. Good news though is they (as a conveniently timed sweetner) are adding HA & QR as partners.

View attachment 335241
Guess this goes to show how valued and expensive SQ points are to some... but it does add a bit of an opportunity with a couple of alternative airlines that are pretty solid.

 

[777 300]

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

 

[777 300]

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

I know im going to cop flack for this comment for this unpopular opinion,
But here it goes

I think devaluation is just wrong and should be illegal

Just because they want to make more money,
The airline/credit card company has already made its profit from the original purchase by the consumer, you cant have your cake and eat it

A typical example is if you were given a free burger voucher. You will.always ben entitled to the burger
Not half the burger in 1 years time because they decided to devalue

 

[SOPOOR]

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Before we bag AMEX, I would like to know if it was AMEX who devalued our points or SIA and Emirates and why. Two of the most successful and "profitable" airlines in the World. Also SIA with the worst miles validity. For an airline that is so good (except for my last business class flight), thier FF program is restrictive and favours thier "valued" flyers (read PPS etc).It is a shame that SIA in particular does not value the "ordinary" people who have supported them since Adam was a boy. This may sound like a rant, which it probably is, but it is from someone who has given up trying to find business class award availability BNE-SIN-BNE, unless you want to be on the end of a "waitlist" that stretches from here to eternity.. If you complain (negative feedback), you get the normal platitudes from their dedicated staff, who are great and mean very well. Not so the upper crust who may feel that our whinges are unjustified.I worked in customer service all my life. I can tell you that "one" appeased complainant, is worth more that 10 satisfied people. they tell more people and they appreciate that somebody cares, which SIA certainly do not. Bye Bye SIA and good luck............

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

Post automatically merged: Jul 6, 2023

To give you some context in april 2020 (if i recall)
Amex halved the redemptiom rate to most/all reward partners including sia

This made In my view, the programme go from. Quite generous to decent.
I assumed that memberships would drop

These current changes in my view makes it go from decent to Barely worth it

But I don't think we will see amex go bankrupt soon

 

[Human]

To give you some context in april 2020 (if i recall)
Amex halved the redemptiom rate to most/all reward partners including sia

I think it was April 2019. Ironically, in April 2020, as a response to the pandemic, Amex temporarily doubled the value of membership rewards points for paying off credit card spending (but not for FF programme transfers).