New aviation industry ombudsman & customer rights charter in Australia

[MEL_Traveller]

The battle we - as consumers - are having with this piece of legislation makes you appreciate the phenomenal effort it must have taken to get the basic ACL ‘repair or refund’ legislation in place!

Can you imagine if they were proposing that today? I doubt it would ever have got up. Retailers and manufacturers would have argued that having to repair goods or refund would ‘drive up prices’, would be ‘confusing to consumers’.

Well… we seem to have managed!

 

[Quickstatus]

consumers

...for some reason still think that the manufacturer's warranty defines their rights like the recent comment about TV warranty on the WCMO thread

 

[SydneySwan]

...for some reason still think that the manufacturer's warranty defines their rights like the recent comment about TV warranty on the WCMO thread

Looking at what retailers try on with consumers - you need to take it up with the manufacturer - I am wondering if Qantas would try something similar - I am sorry your A330 service was late / cancelled but you need to take that up with Airbus.

 

[CaptJCool]

Looking at what retailers try on with consumers - you need to take it up with the manufacturer - I am wondering if Qantas would try something similar - I am sorry your A330 service was late / cancelled but you need to take that up with Airbus.

Phones airbus

Hello I’m calling from Australia ?

Oui

Bonjour
Parleez vous Anglaise?

Non

Hangs up

Retorts

 

[Seat0B]

So who has the most to lose here?

The passengers

 

[MEL_Traveller]

According to LoyaltyLobby… what we’ll get is almost nothing. It’s simply writing in a bit more detail what we already have in ACL?

https://loyaltylobby.com/2024/08/26/qantas-virgin-australiua-escape-having-to-provide-eu-style-compensation-in-case-of-long-delays-cancellations/

Virgin, Jetstar and Qantas already provide for full refunds in the event you have a claim under ACL. So i’m not sure what’s actually going to change? Maybe this will impact foreign carriers, some of whom might be LCCs and have previously offered vouchers rather than refunds?

 

[LondonAussie]

A lot of the reporting is focusing on quick refunds. Often that's not in the customer's interest - you get your money back, but then may have to buy a more expensive same-day fare on another airline.

One of the best things about the EU legislation is requiring the airline to cover all additional costs of getting you to your destination, eg rebooking you onto another carrier, or to reimburse you for making your own alternative travel arrangements, plus meals and accommodation if overnight delay. I've used this option several times in Europe, you just need to send them photos of your receipts.

 

[CaptJCool]

A lot of the reporting is focusing on quick refunds. Often that's not in the customer's interest - you get your money back, but then may have to buy a more expensive same-day fare on another airline.

That is the real drawback from any system in play given the pattern of airfare pricing structure (price levels within booking class) AND yield managers intervention AND AUSTRALIAN airlines taking advantage of LATE bookings with prices going up and up FOMO. How much do you want to fly at that time the next day or two ?

Restrict capacity and you FORCE consumers to book higher priced “available” seats simply because of the way you have set up the pricing structure for a specific flight.

Same seat at least 8-10 different prices (subject to restrictions or not)

Just remember the bank always wins

 

[Mwenenzi]

Is a very poor response by the AU Federal government.

AFF article --> Aviation White Paper Lets Down Australian Consumers

<snip>
The scheme applies to both domestic and international airlines operating in Australia, and the ombudsperson would have the power to:

• Provide an external dispute resolution service
• Direct airlines and airports to provide specific remedies to customers
• Give public information to customers on airlines’ and airports’ legal obligations
• Publish reports on airline and airport conduct
• Request additional information from airlines about the reasons for specific delays and cancellations
• Recommend policies to the federal government
• Refer systemic misconduct to the ACCC

<snip>

In addition to "publish reports on airline and airport conduct" should publish reports on Au govt services performance for airline passenger and the airline operation. (ATC, immigration, customs, security, etc). Airports, as an entity, provide little of these services. The airport companies (mostly private) are effectively just landlords of a shopping centre ~ expensive car park who rent out space or land to airlines at a very high rate per m². The terminal physical buildings can be airline owned or leased out.

 

[Gold Member]

Is a very poor response by the AU Federal government.

No one actually believed that these Chairman's Lounge Members would act in Australia’s “Best Interests”. This draft paper for consultation was written by Qantas and handed to King for her team to remove Qantas watermarks.

 

[Mwenenzi]

No one actually believed that these Chairman's Lounge Members would act in Australia’s “Best Interests”. This draft paper for consultation was written by Qantas and handed to King for her team to remove Qantas watermarks.

Willing to that into a statutory declaration and personally sign?
With evidence that will stand up in court.

 

[Big John]

I'm quite disappointed that an AU261 isn't bring introduced.

 

[DC3]

.. Not make on a guess or opinion of what it may be/may not be.

Good point. However, a few of our fellow-AFFers have already decided the matter.

 

[Gold Member]

Good point. However, a few of our fellow-AFFers have already decided the matter.

Never underestimate the greed and self serving interests of our Politicians.

 

[Seat0B]

According to LoyaltyLobby… what we’ll get is almost nothing. It’s simply writing in a bit more detail what we already have in ACL?

https://loyaltylobby.com/2024/08/26/qantas-virgin-australiua-escape-having-to-provide-eu-style-compensation-in-case-of-long-delays-cancellations/

Virgin, Jetstar and Qantas already provide for full refunds in the event you have a claim under ACL. So i’m not sure what’s actually going to change? Maybe this will impact foreign carriers, some of whom might be LCCs and have previously offered vouchers rather than refunds?

It would be pretty good if the airlines had to offer the same as the ACL - repair, replace or refund at the customer!s discretion.

Many people don’t even know that this is their right in the consumer setting.

I understand the natural focus on getting a decent refund. This is fundamental, but not the best outcome in every situation, as people here know - for example, when you are refunded a cheap advance purchase fare, and then have to stump up mega $ to get a flight on short notice. Or when you are left stranded overseas or even away from home in Aus, holding a fistful of refunded airfare, when what you want is to actually just get to your destination. So I think airlines should be required to offer a refund or a replacement like for like flight, at the customer’s discretion, just as all other businesses are required to do under the ACL. That would be a very good start.

Compensation for unreasonable disruption/delay is a separate matter. FWIW I think there should be some sort of compensation.

 

[MARTINE]

I read Matt’s article and summary of the white paper.

I have not read the actual White Paper

I seek clarity regarding issues of flight delays/cancellations when there are no more flights available - and accommodation is needed. Options/who pays/due to airline’s fault (or not) are all rather opaque.
I do note there are obligations to define these terms and communicate with passengers.
We will see

 

[kangarooflyer88]

To say the proposed changes are disappointing is putting it mildly. As it presently stands and even under the new air passenger charter, the airlines can continue to leave passengers high and dry with little recourse. They can cancel flights as they wish and only offer passengers a refund. Not so helpful if you then have to turn around and pay through the nose for a new flight. It also is silent on questions like whether airlines need to provide meals and accommodations for lengthy delays. And as others have pointed out there are no entitlements to money when lengthy delays occur which is the case with EU261 and even Canada’s subpar APPR legislation.

Contrast this with passenger rights elsewhere whereby airlines would be forced to rebook passengers on the next flight operated by any airline (including competitors) during a cancellation or delay, meals must be provided, hotels must be covered (without any arbitrary cap like $150 which the airlines love to impose which if you’ve ever tried to find in a large city like Brisbane at the last minute is impossible). And passengers are entitled to money for most delays and overbooking which again makes sense. Why should an airline be able to get away with making the commercial decision to cancel a flight that isn’t filled as much as they like?

Some may have pointed out that in the EU all that changed was airlines changed how they managed their fleet to minimize the length of any delay on any flight but also having the effect of increasing the overall delay experienced by customers. That remains to be seen so far as I can tell and in any event it puts a hard cap on the delay you’ll face. Certainly you won’t be experiencing the 3+ hour delays many passengers face in Australia as the airlines will have to pay out for that delay. And keep in mind all of these rules are in place in a market where low cost budget airlines like RyanAir thrive. They can do so well precisely because they run on-time operations. So if anything an air passenger rights legislation could save Qantas billions in the long run by putting an explicit cost to running their operations inefficiently.

-RooFlyer88

 

[justinbrett]

The one good thing that should come out of this is the ability to raise a complaint and have it fast tracked through the airline system.

I recently raised a complaint through the airline advocate and QF contacted me within 24 hours, and problem solved a few hours after that. I had been waiting months in the QF system before that.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I read Matt’s article and summary of the white paper.

I have not read the actual White Paper

I seek clarity regarding issues of flight delays/cancellations when there are no more flights available - and accommodation is needed. Options/who pays/due to airline’s fault (or not) are all rather opaque.
I do note there are obligations to define these terms and communicate with passengers.
We will see

I think these situations are covered, currently. JQ and QF have charters and/or set levels of compensation, including hotels and transfers in the event a flight is cancelled within the airline’s controls.

So likely little change, other than the ombudsman will be able to perhaps arbitrate?

For matters outside an airline’s control, going to be same same it seems.

 

[MARTINE]

I think these situations are covered, currently. JQ and QF have charters and/or set levels of compensation, including hotels and transfers in the event a flight is cancelled within the airline’s controls.

So likely little change, other than the ombudsman will be able to perhaps arbitrate?

For matters outside an airline’s control, going to be same same it seems.

I think the issue is the mandatory definition of ‘within the airlines control’
It may be in the current charter but what the airline things is within their control is not always according to the customer interpretation.
Communication is also fairly poor in this regard.