New low in employee engagement at Qantas? Pilots being threatened over Project Sunrise pay deal...

[ozfflyer]

As Qantas has done with the recent Jetstar issues, they are putting a "dollar value" (and nobody knows how they come to this) on the rest, fatigue etc issues that the pilot union has raised. This means they can say things like "the $300k per year Captains want a 15% payrise!", which isn't even close to true.

"Project Sunrise" is one of the biggest scams ever to have been spat out by Coward St. It's simply another route that needs to comply with long established work/rest rules. Qantas are simply using this as a way to drag down wages in the most expensive country in the world. How are those 3 hour call centre waits going... Things are not well at QF!

Captains on $400k was quoted. That seems a lot for the few hours they actually fly per month

 

[nathrek]

When you look at $400k as an hourly rate then it can seem absurd but $400k isn't just for the hours flown that year, it's for the accumulated knowledge/training/experience of the previous decades like most other highly skilled and specialised roles.

It's also competition with the market. If that's what pilots are paid across the industry then that's what they're valued at. If you want that number to go down you need to ensure there's more pilots than available roles.

 

[ozfflyer]

When you look at $400k as an hourly rate then it can seem absurd but $400k isn't just for the hours flown that year, it's for the accumulated knowledge/training/experience of the previous decades like most other highly skilled and specialised roles.

It's also competition with the market. If that's what pilots are paid across the industry then that's what they're valued at. If you want that number to go down you need to ensure there's more pilots than available roles.

$400k is a lot for anyone. No one is worth $8,000.00 a week plus massive pilot glut with 1000s of foreign in China told to take leave without pay indefinitely & it's going to get a lot worse.

 

[disruptivedolphin]

$400k is a lot for anyone. No one is worth $8,000.00 a week

I'd kind of like my pilot to be well paid.

"You don't get paid for the hour. You get paid for the value you bring to the hour."

 

[drron]

While a certain Australian Institution pays $200,000 a year to a fellow who does a 15 minute TV show once a week and $600,000 a year to his boss.
So quite frankly on those comparisons QF Senior Captains are worth every cent they get.

 

[ozfflyer]

While a certain Australian Institution pays $200,000 a year to a fellow who does a 15 minute TV show once a week and $600,000 a year to his boss.
So quite frankly on those comparisons QF Senior Captains are worth every cent they get.

silly comparison as not many do that. Next you'll be saying a bank CEO is worth it.

Post automatically merged: Feb 19, 2020

I'd kind of like my pilot to be well paid.

"You don't get paid for the hour. You get paid for the value you bring to the hour."

$200k is well paid & with massive glut of pilots their value has dropped dramatically

 

[moa999]

I suspect part of this is also that QF is essentially transitioning to smaller aircraft.
Firsts 747s to 787s and seemingly now 380s to 350s over the coming years.

787 with 238 pax, A350 rumoured with 270.
Whereas current A380 485, 747ER 364, even the 333 is 297 and 332int 251.
Admittedly it's a higher premium mix in the the newer aircraft

Pilots have historically been paid relative to the size of the aircraft (in effect a portion of each fare, and you can understand why in such a narrow margin industry Qantas doesn't want to be increasing the effective cost per pax).

But it's a function of the history in the industry, that a Captain in an A380 is earning many multiples of junior pilot in a Dash8 despite ostensibly performing the same role.

 

[ozfflyer]

I suspect part of this is also that QF is essentially transitioning to smaller aircraft.
Firsts 747s to 787s and seemingly now 380s to 350s over the coming years.

787 with 238 pax, A350 rumoured with 270.
Whereas current A380 485, 747ER 364, even the 333 is 297 and 332int 251.
Admittedly it's a higher premium mix in the the newer aircraft

Pilots have historically been paid relative to the size of the aircraft (in effect a portion of each fare, and you can understand why in such a narrow margin industry Qantas doesn't want to be increasing the effective cost per pax).

But it's a function of the history in the industry, that a Captain in an A380 is earning many multiples of junior pilot in a Dash8 despite ostensibly performing the same role.

when it comes down to it, one of the reasons we are having a recession, is some people think they are worth more than they are & those paying them say hang on, that's too much & they lose work if self employed or lose their job.

Many traddies have priced themselves out of the market & the same happens in all businesses & all occupations.

 

[jb747]

$400k is a lot for anyone. No one is worth $8,000.00 a week plus massive pilot glut with 1000s of foreign in China told to take leave without pay indefinitely & it's going to get a lot worse.

Perhaps it will get worse, but in that case, pilot pay won’t really be an issue, will it?

 

[ozfflyer]

Perhaps it will get worse, but in that case, pilot pay won’t really be an issue, will it?

I think $400k to $0 would be an issue

Foreign Pilots in China Forced to Stop Working, Without Pay

Coronavirus is officially a major problem. The World Health Organization says it’s a global emergency, and more than 450 people have died in China from the virus. That also means that there’s been a massive drop in interest in travel to China, where the virus originated. It’s a significant...

www.flyertalk.com

 

[jase05]

$400k is a lot for anyone. No one is worth $8,000.00 a week plus massive pilot glut with 1000s of foreign in China told to take leave without pay indefinitely & it's going to get a lot worse.

They are worth every cent of that IMO.
Plenty of people are worth that per week

 

[flyer89]

$400k is a lot for anyone. No one is worth $8,000.00 a week plus massive pilot glut with 1000s of foreign in China told to take leave without pay indefinitely & it's going to get a lot worse.

Everyone is overpaid when it’s not them. May I suggest a few airlines for you where the training and pay is poor? Do consider Air Asia and Lion Air next time you fly. Perhaps Pegasus also.

 

[ozfflyer]

Everyone is overpaid when it’s not them. May I suggest a few airlines for you where the training and pay is poor? Do consider Air Asia and Lion Air next time you fly. Perhaps Pegasus also.

$400 k !!!

1000s of pilots for Chinese airlines are getting exactly $0 right now

 

[flyer89]

$400 k !!!

1000s of pilots for Chinese airlines are getting exactly $0 right now

Which bears absolutely no relevance to anything and is the definition of a straw man if ever I have seen one. How much should they be paid then oh divine arbiter of remuneration?

 

[jb747]

Captains on $400k was quoted. That seems a lot for the few hours they actually fly per month

Oh, and how many hours is that?

 

[suze2000]

$400k is a lot for anyone. No one is worth $8,000.00 a week plus massive pilot glut with 1000s of foreign in China told to take leave without pay indefinitely & it's going to get a lot worse.

It is a lot. But do YOU want to fly with those other pilots at the helm? I'll say it: I don't. (and that's not racism - that's "I'm unsure how well they were trained"-ism)

 

[ozfflyer]

Which bears absolutely no relevance to anything and is the definition of a straw man if ever I have seen one. How much should they be paid then oh divine arbiter of remuneration?

supply & demand. Supply has just become ENORMOUS & demand is falling VERY VERY fast.

It's a perfect storm. Economy going down the toilet fast, inbound tourism from Asia is stuffed for next year or 2, building game, restaurant game & retail is big trouble (we can't all be public servants)

 

[juddles]

I have such conflicting opinions on this. I have not cared how much a Qantas pilot gets paid - as I think that they are the cream - the absolute best in the world. And I value that as a pax.

But at the same time I struggle with the commercial realities. This week the Holden brand got terminated. They made great cars with much skill. But in the international market these days they became simply something that was great but uneconomic. I feel (and fear) that the age of fantastic Qantas pilots is going the same way - they are great but the customers will not actually pay for their higher cost.

We, as in consumers and pax, vote always with our wallets. We may express other things online, but at the end of the day it is bookings that rule an airline. Which means that Qantas as a company has to attract our spend, using pricing. And if they cannot do that with current pilot costs, then obviously they will have to seek a cheaper path.

I am perhaps one of the few that has actually put a real premium on QF aircraft and pilots, booking them consistently when slighty cheaper alternatives were available. But I know that I am in the tiny minority.

Expectations, from both pax and staff, that Qantas can compete in this international market using more expensive pilots but at cheap prices is impossible....

 

[ozfflyer]

I have such conflicting opinions on this. I have not cared how much a Qantas pilot gets paid - as I think that they are the cream - the absolute best in the world. And I value that as a pax.

But at the same time I struggle with the commercial realities. This week the Holden brand got terminated. They made great cars with much skill. But in the international market these days they became simply something that was great but uneconomic. I feel (and fear) that the age of fantastic Qantas pilots is going the same way - they are great but the customers will not actually pay for their higher cost.

We, as in consumers and pax, vote always with our wallets. We may express other things online, but at the end of the day it is bookings that rule an airline. Which means that Qantas as a company has to attract our spend, using pricing. And if they cannot do that with current pilot costs, then obviously they will have to seek a cheaper path.

I am perhaps one of the few that has actually put a real premium on QF aircraft and pilots, booking them consistently when slighty cheaper alternatives were available. But I know that I am in the tiny minority.

Expectations, from both pax and staff, that Qantas can compete in this international market using more expensive pilots but at cheap prices is impossible....

nothing special about Qantas or their pilots.

Sounds like you believe all their spin. There are much better airlines around.

They haven't had a crash since Bangkok Sep 1999 IIRC, when they wrote off a 744, but had it repaired in China of all places.

 

[juddles]

nothing special about Qantas or their pilots.

Sounds like you believe all their spin. There are much better airlines around.

They haven't had a crash since Bangkok Sep 1999 IIRC, when they wrote off a 744, but had it repaired in China of all places.

Ozfflyer, I always delight to respond to you as i value your opinions.

Do I believe all their "spin" ?? I make my comments about QF pilots from experience and knowledge - something completely separate and untouched from any QF propaganda. I understand and acknowledge that the QF brand has capitalized on and promoted their great safety record, but that is not what I base my personal opinion on. I have a fairly wide and complicated experience in many cultures, and with that I have come to love something that the underlying Aussie culture brings. We, as a nation, have a fairly unique culture which has both great innovation, but also, and more importantly in this specific argument, a culture where professionals have a voice and influence. This is not the norm throughout the world. I have so far more confidence in a QF pilot deciding that X is risky and thus it is not done, than in most cultures where staff just go along with the flow of management.