New low in employee engagement at Qantas? Pilots being threatened over Project Sunrise pay deal...

[p--and--t]

Exactly the reason I'm happy to fly Qantas instead of the far cheaper AirAsia or China Southern

Same here. Not QF exclusively by any measure if you want to get to many places in the world, but not interested in flying the other two you mentioned (AK, CZ)

 

[Melburnian1]

While I believe wage and salary costs in Australia have got out of hand, my major focus is on the proposed 23.5 hours duty limit as that's what Mr Joyce at QFi is seeking.

Perhaps some QF pilots/FO sleep well on planes. However, I find sleeping for three hours at a time to be about what I can manage in J, but far less in whY.

Quality of sleep must be questionable, as there's too much light, passengers or staff walking past and sometimes mild turbulence. If one is near toilets, the flush is noisy, and passengers may use the adjacent area as somewhere to stand. Most of us won't be near the galley(s) but should we be, there'll be chit-chat plus preparation noise.

Even if pilots are sectioned off in their own 'mini cabin' up the front with two or one door(s) between them and passengers/other staff, one can't comprehend that they get excellent REM (if that's the term) sleep.

Compare aircraft to many trains. Latter I find quite easy to sleep in: several hours in a sleeping berth, or a couple of hours at a time in a seat, because the motion is more conducive to sleep, there tends to be less light and at night usually fewer individuals walking up or down the aisle, assuming it's a saloon not a compartment car. There are no seatbelts on trains (not required) while on aircraft, they are mandatory but can be an annoyance if one is someone who tosses and turns during sleep.

The pilots may not be required much these days because of so much automation, but if there's a problem, one would hope that they are fairly alert at a minimum. 20.5 hours since signing on, are they?

So no, I won't be on board any carrier that operates such lengthy flights. As a bonus, I like stopovers.

 

[jase05]

Sounds like the union has put forward their offer to Qantas

Qantas long-haul pilots put lengthy proposal to company - Airline Ratings

The Qantas pilots’ union has put a “consolidated offer” to the airline that accepts an annual pay rise of 3 percent and includes Project Sunrise flying as part of a long-haul agreement. The offer comes after Qantas warned it could employ outside pilots for its ambitious plans to fly from...

www.airlineratings.com

 

[juddles]

Sounds like the union has put forward their offer to Qantas

Qantas long-haul pilots put lengthy proposal to company - Airline Ratings

The Qantas pilots’ union has put a “consolidated offer” to the airline that accepts an annual pay rise of 3 percent and includes Project Sunrise flying as part of a long-haul agreement. The offer comes after Qantas warned it could employ outside pilots for its ambitious plans to fly from...

www.airlineratings.com

Would love to hear jb747's opinion on this development as the meanings of some of the concepts escape me.

At the end of the day, I would far prefer to current pilots adapting / Qantas compromising, rather than the alternative of a pool of new outsiders.

 

[N860CR]

At the end of the day, I would far prefer to current pilots adapting / Qantas compromising, rather than the alternative of a pool of new outsiders.

Realistically, there was nothing stopping Qantas outsourcing the operation anyway. They already do to an extent with the NZ operation and have attempted it in Asia before. It’s not any cheaper usually.

 

[N860CR]

I am interested in following the banter back and forth, but lets not embellish the truth. It is a known fact that is not true. You are taking a one off for a contract bonus deal made in 2014 and extrapolating that to an annual/monthly salary. Don't fall for the media click-bait.

The dollar figure is arbitrary. The fact remains Joyce is the highest paid airline CEO in the world and this does not reflect his performance. Yes the current profits are good, and it would be a serious concern if it wasn’t given the amount of creative accounting that has gone on over the last 5 years!

It is beyond hypocritical to accept the huge salary he does while at the same time doing nothing but drive down the already low cost base he has for labour in one of the worlds most expensive countries.

 

[dajop]

The dollar figure is arbitrary. The fact remains Joyce is the highest paid airline CEO in the world and this does not reflect his performance.

I'm not going to argue on many points over the way in which this negotation is proceeding and the tactics employed. But, it is not a fact that Joyce is the highest "paid" CEO in the world. From memory the US3 all have CEO's paid (in cash, short term and long term incentives) more than Joyce. Joyce's reported "pay" was distorted by the realisation of gains from previously granted shares and options (due to the rise of the share price). That listed in the annual report shows how much it cost QF investors to pay the man.

 

[juddles]

The dollar figure is arbitrary. The fact remains Joyce is the highest paid airline CEO in the world and this does not reflect his performance. Yes the current profits are good, and it would be a serious concern if it wasn’t given the amount of creative accounting that has gone on over the last 5 years!

It is beyond hypocritical to accept the huge salary he does while at the same time doing nothing but drive down the already low cost base he has for labour in one of the worlds most expensive countries.

Hmmmm....

I get that you hate Joyce and whatever he stands for, in your view. I come from a totally different angle - I am sheerly amazed that Qantas still exists. And I am thankful every day due to my personal investment in such things as Life Time Gold. Whether Joyce is the "highest paid" CEO in the airline world is moot - what is real IMHO is that he is managing to keep afloat an airline that in any analysis of the world aviation trade - should have died!!! Years ago!!!

 

[juddles]

P.S. I saw here on AFF recently someone talking about how Joyce was paid over $2million a month. This either deliberate fake news or complete misunderstanding of reality reveals so much about his detractors... But I will not explain that as I get the gist that you do not want to hear.....

 

[N860CR]

I get that you hate Joyce and whatever he stands for, in your view

But I will not explain that as I get the gist that you do not want to hear.....

Sure thing mate

 

[Melburnian1]

...It is beyond hypocritical to accept the huge salary he does while at the same time doing nothing but drive down the already low cost base he has for labour in one of the worlds most expensive countries.

'Low cost base he has for labour...'

Can you please explain?

I am aware some ground staff (check in, bag handlers) at JQ in particular may be low paid but (and here's where A$ v US$ may come in) aren't QF pilot/FO etc. salaries very high by world standards and other staff (i.e. flight attendants) payments also high?

On-costs in Oz must also be very high.

 

[RooFlyer]

Apparently a deal (of the times ...)

Qantas pilots vote in favour of Project Sunrise long-haul deal probably paywalled, so:

Qantas long haul pilots have voted in favour of a new work agreement after a “challenging negotiation” in which the airline threatened to set up a separate entity of pilots to operate Project Sunrise flights.

The final vote count was 85 per cent in favour of the agreement, which included a 3 per cent annual pay rise and increased flexibility with rostering.

 

[jb747]

I am aware some ground staff (check in, bag handlers) at JQ in particular may be low paid but (and here's where A$ v US$ may come in) aren't QF pilot/FO etc. salaries very high by world standards and other staff (i.e. flight attendants) payments also high?

Put them all in to the same currencies and then compare.

Or, alternatively, subract tax, and look at how many McDonalds it will buy in your local currency.

They're actually all quite similar.

 

[jb747]

I don't know any of the details of the company or union proposals. And, to be honest, I'm not all that interested in finding out. My understanding of it is that the company accepted none of union's asks, but demanded 100% of their own. It was not a negotiation in any real sense, simply devolving to demands and threats. I guess it got through because the threats worked, and world events would seem to have enacted the threats anyway.