New Qantas Loyalty CEO announced

[kangarooflyer88]

Thinking a bit more, they might try to bundle all the announcements with the launch of the a220 as well. Adds an extra good PR point even if there are some minor "enhancements".

When is the Qantas C Series starting service in Australia? Or will that be part of the announcement? Hopefully it's a bundle of announcements and not a bundle of rights!

 

[elanshin]

When is the Qantas C Series starting service in Australia? Or will that be part of the announcement? Hopefully it's a bundle of announcements and not a bundle of rights!

Rumors are March, but they haven't officially announced anything. Given the Green Roo was parade on the home page for a bit, they would make a proper launch of the plane.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think we are mostly furious agreement and I don't wish the below to be seen as arguing for argument sake,

points+pay is a different way to use points to pay for revenue seats as opposed to CR. Now yes, that difference is a nuance and the average punter doesn't know this - and nor should they - or care. None the less it is a key difference - specially when one can see the CR available alongside p+p pricing then it's obvious.

Yes, the average punter probably will not differentiate P+P and CRs. There are, what, 15 million QFF members, a good chunk of whom are diligently collecting points via spend in the hope/expectation of being able to redeem the points for a holiday overseas. A key thing is your last sentence there - where they can see the two beside each other. But when they don't - they just see the large cost and probably think Geez, that's a bit rich.

Getting back to the point about the apparent devaluation when being presented with points+pay pricing for seats vs CR pricing.. again it's not a like for like comparison - and that's what really annoys me about the media writing such things. Now, the pub test almost certainly agrees with you that it is a devaluation, because that's what the member is presented with when they select "use points" - again QF have created this misconception largely through their own choices.

Exactly - I'm not talking about the technical or correct difference between P+P and CR pricing - I'm merely taking the view or perception of the average punter - the one that the article was talking about, too. So that's why I think Knight's article made a valid point, and not the 'way off' scribbling /confused that it reads like first.

Thinking on it, I reckon QF could actually make a simple tweak to the results display that we currently have to make it much clearer. You can bring up your p+p pricing but ALSO have in the column for "Classic Reward" instead of just saying "No Seats" to actually have the points price but also say no seats at this level - to make it clear that this is the CR price, but OK there's none there, but at least you could see.

Agree - there is a bunch of things QF could do to their web site to make it clearer for people to understand and use. However I honestly think the prominent presentation of the P+P pricing isn't an accident.

 

[clifford]

IMO, at the end of the day, Qantas will do whatever it likes, irrespective of any marketing cough or outside pressure or comment (from anyone). After all, it's still the same Qantas, with the same management. Leopards don't change their spots.

Thus, I think any changes to QFF will be quite negative (give or take some window dressing), and may well be along the lines of what BA (IAG) did to its FF program.

That is, to further encourage savvy people to fly on other One World airlines. However, I expect the remains of Great Unwashed will still be rusted on.

 

[drron]

I really don’t have recent experience of this but when I first joined AAdvantage I as a newcomer with no status was able to access awards when they first released them. Exactly the same as their elites. But I got to LTP in ~ 2010.
With SQ I had no status until 2019 yet I could still snag 2 F/R awards SIN - LHR any logging on as soon as they were available. In fact now not as easy though KF gold.

The problem as I see it is that QF panders too much to their elites forgetting that in numbers there are way more battlers who are getting really annoyed at being forgotten.
Maybe QF needs to think of the battlers a little more. As it is WPs and WP1s still have an advantage by being able to request extra availability.

 

[_TheTraveller_]

I really don’t have recent experience of this but when I first joined AAdvantage I as a newcomer with no status was able to access awards when they first released them. Exactly the same as their elites. But I got to LTP in ~ 2010.
With SQ I had no status until 2019 yet I could still snag 2 F/R awards SIN - LHR any logging on as soon as they were available. In fact now not as easy though KF gold.

The problem as I see it is that QF panders too much to their elites forgetting that in numbers there are way more battlers who are getting really annoyed at being forgotten.
Maybe QF needs to think of the battlers a little more. As it is WPs and WP1s still have an advantage by being able to request extra availability.

In terms of seats, how many can QF afford or be willing to give as CR compared to SQ or AA? For dom I can imagine being okay but intl? I could be wrong but I can only guess that SQ and AA have far more seats available compared to QF.

Edit: thinking about this a bit more... and my memory is failing me but I feel like QF CR Y availability has been a bit better post-COVID? If QF increases the number of CR Y seats would people be happier or do they need to them to be in the middle of holidays to be satiated?

Also having been WP for a few years, I've always found requesting as a WP hit and miss. Yes we have the ability but often it requires I or Q class. Looking at SYD-LHR on QF1 between May-June. There are a handful of days where Q class is available before 15/5 and nothing after that so even during peak periods, we're no better than the general public. This is more so the case given that QF has done away release availability at 355 days. I will admit that WP1 is a different game.

 

[drron]

In terms of seats, how many can QF afford or be willing to give as CR compared to SQ or AA? For dom I can imagine being okay but intl? I could be wrong but I can only guess that SQ and AA have far more seats available compared to QF.

Edit: thinking about this a bit more... and my memory is failing me but I feel like QF Y availability has been a bit better post-COVID?

SQ and AA have many more flights. The real measure is how many awards per flight.

 

[CaptJCool]

IMO, at the end of the day, Qantas will do whatever it likes, irrespective of any marketing cough or outside pressure or comment (from anyone). After all, it's still the same Qantas, with the same management. Leopards don't change their spots..

like this

How on earth is the cheapest price for a 6am flight two days out this price ?

These same seats can sell for $185 at the lowest price point (there being 5-7 increments for red-e deal) and clearly for Flex a number of price points

 

[DejaBrew]

View attachment 367564

like this

How on earth is the cheapest price for a 6am flight two days out this price ?

These same seats can sell for $185 at the lowest price point (there being 5-7 increments for red-e deal) and clearly for Flex a number of price points

FWIW, Expert Flyer is showing that particular flight as being pretty full...


So whilst I don't necessarily personally agree with the pricing tactics as a consumer, I'm guessing that Qantas is asking prospective passengers just how badly they need to be on that plane given it's a seemingly loaded flight?

 

[RichardMEL]

Because

QF 730

ADL 6:00 → SYD 8:25 J0 C0 D0 I0 Y8 B0 H0 K0 M0 L0 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0 X0 E0

Why is it so full? No idea. I am sure there are reasons.

You conveniently miss that their are fares between $200-$400 for the rest of the day.

What does this have to do with the Loyalty CEO?

 

[CaptJCool]

Because



Why is it so full? No idea. I am sure there are reasons.

You conveniently miss that their are fares between $200-$400 for the rest of the day.

What does this have to do with the Loyalty CEO?

loyalty is a two-way street

fares at these prices suggests its only one-way
same thing happened the weekend Coldplay were in Perth only for 2 concerts - airfares from the East coast were extraordinarily high so why would anyone want to fly there paying a small fortune? felt sorry for the folk who needed to fly because of "family emergency"

I'd like to see this kind of late notice dynamic excessive pricing abolished which is something the Loyalty CEO can drive

 

[DejaBrew]

I'd like to see this kind of late notice dynamic excessive pricing abolished which is something the Loyalty CEO can drive

To play devil's advocate though... Arguably, leaving availability open like this at a high ticket price gives the average punter $1088 reasons to book a different flight, yet still permits those who need to travel (i.e. say for some business-critical / time-critical purpose) a chance to get a bum on a seat at the required time of day (albeit at a higher than average price). Qantas would likely argue that they are providing options to suit all budgets and needs (as @RichardMEL rightly pointed out, there are plenty of reasonably priced options at other times of the day). We may not strictly agree with their line, but it doesn't make it untrue. Ultimately for Qantas, chances are that with a plane that full, not selling that final $1088 seat won't make a hell of a difference to the profitability of that particular flight for the day.

 

[p--and--t]

I'd like to see this kind of late notice dynamic excessive pricing abolished

Isn’t this the exact pricing methodology (demand driven) used by every airline and hotel in the world?

 

[oz_mark]

I'd like to see this kind of late notice dynamic excessive pricing abolished which is something the Loyalty CEO can drive

I don't really know, it could just be the published Y fare and all the cheaper fares have gone.
And let's face it, if all seats were sold at $200, they'd probably all be sold out and no-one would be able to get a seat.

 

[CaptJCool]

I don't really know, it could just be the published Y fare and all the cheaper fares have gone.
And let's face it, if all seats were sold at $200, they'd probably all be sold out and no-one would be able to get a seat.

so when you go and buy retail, you are paying more for higher quality

the same pair of jeans sells for different prices - granted there's sales periods - but you don't see 'auction' prices in retail

Isn’t this the exact pricing methodology (demand driven) used by every airline and hotel in the world?

yes, with pricing going up and down like a yo-yo.

they do maintain floor prices - a level which they never go below - so as to maintain "value" of the product experience.

I suppose its the difference between "buying an experience" service and buying a retail good.

so in the case of the hotel, its like you get given the exact same room, same size, differentiated by floor level in the building and thus access to unparalleled views
whilst on the airline you're talking row 4 v row 24 so the exact same "seat" located at different ends of the plane. (at the front, reminding you that just in front is a bigger seat with better meals and premium weine and champagne plus and first off exiting)

 

[p--and--t]

so when you go and buy retail, you are paying more for higher quality

the same pair of jeans sells for different prices - granted there's sales periods - but you don't see 'auction' prices in retail


yes, with pricing going up and down like a yo-yo.

they do maintain floor prices - a level which they never go below - so as to maintain "value" of the product experience.

I suppose its the difference between "buying an experience" service and buying a retail good.

so in the case of the hotel, its like you get given the exact same room, same size, differentiated by floor level in the building and thus access to unparalleled views
whilst on the airline you're talking row 4 v row 24 so the exact same "seat" located at different ends of the plane. (at the front, reminding you that just in front is a bigger seat with better meals and premium weine and champagne plus and first off exiting)

I think its more than that (the diff between y j f)

I can buy a hotel room for $x several months out and then a week before check and it is $5x because instead of 200 rooms there are only 2 rooms left. Same room same floor same conditions.

In addition I can rent a room on sale for $x when the grand prix is not on but not find one less than $10x during grand prix week.

During school holidays holiday apartments can be 5 times the cost of off season for same accom.

Airlines are no different. I seriously doubt the loyalty manager will have any impact on that

 

[RichardMEL]

loyalty is a two-way street.

You expect lower last minute prices on a virtually sold out flight because of loyalty? I don't quite get it.

fares at these prices suggests its only one-way

All domestic fares these days are one way.

same thing happened the weekend Coldplay were in Perth only for 2 concerts - airfares from the East coast were extraordinarily high so why would anyone want to fly there paying a small fortune? felt sorry for the folk who needed to fly because of "family emergency"

You've answered your own question why this goes on. It's pure and simple demand and supply. seats on an aircraft are finite. Now, why didn't QF upguage PER flights when coldplay was on when they saw demand go through the roof? Well there are probably many reasons why not, but the most obvious probably is well because it drives up yield for them (most cynical) up to and including scheduling extra flights and/or aircraft upgrades pulls resources from other scheduled routes and isn't as simple as it may seem. Logistics are almost certainly fare more complex than it may seem.

I'd like to see this kind of late notice dynamic excessive pricing abolished which is something the Loyalty CEO can drive

It's not really "dynamic excessive pricing" it's reflecting what is available to sell. As you posted earlier the price points from the cheapest discount Y through to full Y (and J fares) are published and known (easy enough to look up via EF or other source). We can see from EF that they're only selling Y seats on this flight. You can argue that why is Revenue Management doing that - but that's their job to sell the flight to get the maximum yield. Even two days out, other flights have fare lower fare buckets available and thus fares.

Yes I know this LOOKS like price gauging but it seems highly unlikely it's a deliberate act on a 0600 Tuesday flight between ADL and SYD, but simply for whatever reasons, this thing is booked heavily - maybe connections to int flights, maybe a large group going someplace.. who knows (well QF do lol). Again, other flights that day have lower fares available.

How on earth can the LOYALTY CEO affect decisions of revenue management and pricing? that's not remotely the purview of Loyalty.

Remember QF is a Business with the aim to make the most money they can from every flight. That's the world we live in.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

How on earth is the cheapest price for a 6am flight two days out this price ?

These same seats can sell for $185 at the lowest price point (there being 5-7 increments for red-e deal) and clearly for Flex a number of price points

Try a different time that's cheaper and show up for the 6 AM flight. Simples. Remember you did not purchase a seat on a specific flight but a bundle of rights.

 

[RichardMEL]

so when you go and buy retail, you are paying more for higher quality

the same pair of jeans sells for different prices - granted there's sales periods - but you don't see 'auction' prices in retail

Sorry but this is a terribly flawed analogy in my view.

A seat on an aircraft service, train, or any other thing with limited availability with a set timeframe (eg concert, sports event etc) is very different to your standard retail item like jeans, a new phone or whatever.

If the retail outlet have pairs of Levis for sale they are considered more or less to be the same item. They don't have to be bought by a certain date(ie they won't expire or explode on Jan 21st at 4pm) and until a new design or something comes along, they're considered to be always available (ignoring stock shortages, being sold out etc) so yeah, they have a usually set price or sale price.

Events or transport or the like have set expiry dates (if they are not sold by the time of the service then they instantly go away). So the provider wants to sell them by that date or they are wasted (as opposed to a pair of jeans for example).

The legacy model, which just about everyone in the world follows, is dictated by demand and supply. Things like airline seats, train seats etc are a bit different to the sale of perishible goods like say bread or fruit (you know how you could go to the bakery near the end of the day and potentially get unsold items cheaper) - it doesn't work that way because of factors like airlines know that there are those who make last minute bookings for business and must fly, and well their job is to extract that higher yield (fairly or not, that's just the way it is).

this is why there are whole teams in departments named Revenue (or Yield) Management for airlines, hotels etc that determine the best mix of rates to offer or a specific service to sell as many seats as possible at the highest yield to the airline.

From a revenue point of view, it would be foolish to offer seats on the Tueday 6am flight at much lower levels if there's only a few left. Sure, they'd probably get happy campers grabbing those guys, but they clearly also feel there will be those last minute walk up business types who WILL pay that full Y pricing (corporates) - it may be unfair but that's the capitalist system we live in for better or worse.

yes, with pricing going up and down like a yo-yo.

they do maintain floor prices - a level which they never go below - so as to maintain "value" of the product experience.

I suppose its the difference between "buying an experience" service and buying a retail good.

so in the case of the hotel, its like you get given the exact same room, same size, differentiated by floor level in the building and thus access to unparalleled views
whilst on the airline you're talking row 4 v row 24 so the exact same "seat" located at different ends of the plane. (at the front, reminding you that just in front is a bigger seat with better meals and premium weine and champagne plus and first off exiting)

The hotels are a tad different, because they have many more product "types" they can offer (I mean for all but the most budget type places) - those higher floor rooms, better views etc are all considered upgrades on the basic product, and they have their own base point. Slightly different imo to economy seats on a 737 (and remember, a last minute full Y purchasing passenger on a very fill flight may actually only end up in 23E!). Each room type in a hotel has its OWN set of rates (or fare types if you like) for the room type (eg: standard, higher floor, ocean view, etc). that will fluctuate depending on the availability of those room types - the analogy to a flight would be more like "Economy, Economy with a wing view, Economy Aisle, Economy Window, Economy Forward Aisle, etc and so on. it's a slightly different situation in my view because hotels can differentite product far more than on a two class domestic flight.

 

[Quickstatus]

I'm guessing that Qantas is asking prospective passengers just how badly they need to be on that plane given it's a seemingly loaded flight?

It's all about price elasticity. Demand and supply are both affected by price elasticity. Some products are price inelastic and others highly price elastic,